Loading the rod

wjc

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Caster John,

I finally got a GoPro which can be set to remove the fish eye and that takes 240 frames/second slow motion.

Because it seems that the main point of my original post was not really understood or missed by some people, I made a short video to illustrate exactly the point I was making about people being concerned with feeling the rod load.

I can definitely feel the rod load and unload in the video. The yarn on the tip top only weighs 0.008 oz.

It is a 50 mb file and may require a fast computer to watch in super slow motion. It may also take several minutes to load and not play properly the first time. It should play properly the second time though on a fairly modern computer.

I do not have good editing software to reduce the file size and retain the clarity. If anyone else does, please feel free to do so if you like.

http://www.miterclamp.com/videos/no_line1080.mp4
 

cap2666

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hi,I don't know if I am in the right place but I have a problem,I have a 9' 7wt rod fast action with weight forword line,I can cast up to 80 feet with no problem,but I can't go longer then that no matter what I do...Any tips or sugestion?I want to cast longer because I live in Danmark and I go fishing on the coast...Thanks.
 

silver creek

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Try shooting line into the backcast just before your delivery cast.

I think what limits the distance you cast is the maximum amount of fly line you can "carry" in your cast. The best tournament casters can "carry" 100 feet (the entire fly line) beyond the rod tip. Then the final haul adds another 10 feet or so on the shoot.

So what is limiting you is the maximum amount of fly line you can carry during a false cast. Since the amount of line you can shoot is limited by the amount of energy you add in the final haul, to increase your maximum casting distance, you must increase the amount of line you can carry in the cast.

By shooting line into the final backcast, you will add a few more feet of line to the backcast which is just before the forward cast and if you can shoot just as much line on the delivery cast, your cast should be a bit longer.

So to get longer casts, you need to work on keeping more line in the air which requires greater strength, superb timing of the cast and improved control of the rod stroke. Tournament casters shoot line into both backcast and forward casts and not just on the forward cast as 99% of anglers do. Shooting line into the backcast allows them to reach the amount of line they can carry in fewer casts. Fewer false casts means fewer opportunities to make an error.
 

cap2666

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Aaaa,I didn't think of that....I was thinking that I don't carry enough line,but I never think to shoot line on the back cast...Yes sir,thank youuuuu.Tomorrow more practice...thanks,thanks.
 

cap2666

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hello to all,yesterday after 2 hours practicing(start to rain)I was able to cast 93 feet,the ...back cast... is alot more difficult that sounds...I am new to this so I don't really know how much a good caster can cast with a 7wt rod...Thanks
 

cap2666

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Hi,shooting line in the back cast is were the problem kicks in,with 60-70 feet of line in the air....is realy hard to do it and I noticed that at the final forward cast if I start the haul from the first guide of the rod gives more power becouse is bendind the rod at the max...Practicing is the mother of all knowlege..Thanks for the replays.
 

cap2666

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hi,one question for more advanced anglers,is posibil to make over head casts with a switch line?I am thinking becouse it have a bigger shooting head ..50-55 feet, it can carry more line in the air...(I don't know if is true..:confused:)there for you can shoot more line in the last back cast,carry that line(longer) and shoot more line in the last forword cast...Thanks.
 

wjc

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I've never cast a switch line, but just looked at the taper of one on the internet. I don't even know what switch casting is really, but I do know that lines designed for long carries look nothing like that one.

Also most people fishing the surf use lines with heads around 40 feet or less. Some prefer shooting heads of 30 feet.

For long carry casting in competition distance events they usually use Scientific Anglers MED's which have about a 70' head (but with a very gentle rear taper) or Bario competition lines which are nearly identical in length and similar in taper.

The switch line does not look to me like a good line for a long carry because the head weight is all to the rear of the taper - so I would expect that the radical change from skinny running line to big fat rear taper would not transfer energy well between the skinny line loop to the fat rear taper.

Distance is not just about carry either. The longer the carry, the more the sag. And the more the sag the more the slack and the more of the casting stroke that is taken up removing it, and the lower the fly dips on the forward cast.

Loop control, line speed, and timing are more important that carry - especially at low tide in a lot of places, or anywhere there are trees, rocks or even tall grass behind you.

It's one thing to "tic" the grass with fluff in a field practicing distance. It's another to "tic" a rock behind you with a hook. You won't be sticking any fish with it and it may not be re-sharpenable. So chuck that fly and tie on a new one after that fish disappears down the beach. Of course, nobody here has ever done that - but it is possible. ;>)

If there is no head wind, you can shoot shorter heads quite a long distance and it requires no false casting.

As Silver said, the more false casting, the more chances for a screw up.
 

pnc

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For fishing in surf consider sinking line. Loads rod, thinner diameter cuts through wind.
Lines made with short heads (same weight as long heads) are made for quick loading for short or medium lenght casts. Long heads for medium to long casts. Each is a compromise in a different way. Yes short heads can make a long cast. But as distance increases accuracy decreases. Long heads can make a short cast. But unless one has the skill to do so, they will suffer trying.
You might consider making up your own fly line. My favorite rod is a 7w Sage XP. Possibly so because of the range of possible cast. This comes from a shortened clear intermediate 10w head. Half of which outside of tip will lay down a soft 20' cast. Or all outside the tip.... spliced to 5w running line. Will throw line into backing with short stroke. No hauling or play out more line.
Takes a little time to fashion such. Shortening head by small increments until right weight is reached. Though well worth the time.

........ pc
 

hshl

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Hi all,
silver creek said:
There is also the change in momentum and inertia of the fly line during a fly cast. Even in the absence of rod "load," the caster can feel the momentum and inertia changes of the fly line as it alternates during a fly cast. This is entirely separate from rod "load." We can cast with a pool cue as Simon Gawesworth has or without a fly rod at all. When there is no rod that flexes, there is no rod "load;" but the momentum and inertial changes of the cast are felt through the stiff pool cue by proprioception.

an interesting post of silver creek, the redistribution of the moment of inertia / angular momentum is an insight, which holds true for fly rods as well and which will put the properties of our fly rods in a bit fresh light. The deflection (including the "load") of the fly rod is vital generating a proper line speed by using a minimum of effort ('efficiency').

I produced some videos about this redistribution effect concerning the fly rod that might be interesting in this "loading the rod" context: Vimeo Especially these two videos are about the redistribution effect: Contribution of angular momentum in fly casting on Vimeo and Varying angular velocities of the mass elements on the fly rod shaft on Vimeo

Thanks, Tobias
 
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Hirdy

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Tobias,

Two questions:
  1. Are you accounting for the essential translation phase of the cast? I'm only seeing angular velocities being accounted for.
  2. Are you including the mass of the aerialised line in your calculations? Angular and linear acceleration of the rod butt is converted to (ideally) purely linear acceleration of the line, both of which contribute to how much the rod bends during the cast. Your calculations only seem to account for the mass elements of the rod itself, not the mass of the line within the guides and outside the tip. Your video titles imply you are using mass and velocity (momentum) but you don't seem to be accounting for ALL the mass involved.

And of course, there is the question of how you would propose we use your theories to improve our casting. How would my casting instruction benefit by incorporating your mathematics?

Cheers,
Graeme
 

hshl

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Hi Greame,

I'm not sure whether I got your first question. The towards the tip shifting highest angular velocity indicates, that some kinetic energy shifts towards the tip too. It is fair to say that along the deflected fly rod some kinetic energy is able to reach the tip. This redistribution effect was generally confirmed by a 2D marble model at the beginning of 2016 (I think you know the discussions in the SL Forum).

The mass of the fly line is the only mass I included in my investigations. You will always find the letter 'm' in the calculations, which is the mathematical variable of the mass (m) of the fly line. At the end of my investigations I estimated the influence of the mass of the fly rod too (see annex 2).

This redistribution issue is a quite complex impact, which depends on many variables (e.g. stiffness of the fly rod, casting length, the way you move the rod and so on...), so there is not a simple way to teach it. Personally I recomment to include practicing with very soft fly rods time by time to adjust the casting motions a bit. However, it is worth to be aware that the deflection not only triggers the spring effect ("the load"), but redistributes also the moment of inertia (see annex 2 of my investigations), the angular velocities respectively, so that some kinetic energy could reach the tip of the fly rod. :cool:


Merry Xmas to you and all others,

Tobias
 
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silver creek

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Tobias,

Two questions:
  1. Are you accounting for the essential translation phase of the cast? I'm only seeing angular velocities being accounted for.
  2. Are you including the mass of the aerialised line in your calculations? Angular and linear acceleration of the rod butt is converted to (ideally) purely linear acceleration of the line, both of which contribute to how much the rod bends during the cast. Your calculations only seem to account for the mass elements of the rod itself, not the mass of the line within the guides and outside the tip. Your video titles imply you are using mass and velocity (momentum) but you don't seem to be accounting for ALL the mass involved.

And of course, there is the question of how you would propose we use your theories to improve our casting. How would my casting instruction benefit by incorporating your mathematics?

Cheers,
Graeme
I don't know if this will help but there is a very long discussion on Sexyloops. I haven't read it all/

The Board • View topic - Fly rod deflection

I do have a question for Tobias. By modeling the changes in the moment of inertial toward the rod tip, are you not modeling the "spring effect" of the fly rod? If so, there is another study that also does that. By using high speed strobe photography, the Fly Casting Institute calculated the spring effect of the fly rod at less than 20% contribution to fly line KE and the lever effect as greater than 80%.

http://www.flycastinginstitute.com/e-libraryfiles/FCI_E-L_Rod_Cast_102507.pdf
 

Hirdy

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I don't know if this will help but there is a very long discussion on Sexyloops. I haven't read it all/

The Board • View topic - Fly rod deflection
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Thanks for the link SC. I'm Graeme_H on that forum and was involved in the discussion. My question in this thread to Tobias is the same one I asked there: Please provide a useful application of the theory ...

Without a way of using an idea - even if it is just a better explanation of the physics - this theory is just an academic exercise. I can't see how it explains anything nor can I find a way to use it to teach. I can't even use it to improve my own casting.

Tobias, if the mass elements of the rod are important in isolation, please make the same casting video without any line on the rod. I'd like to see how you can possibly get a similar angular momentum or fly rod deflection under casting conditions without the mass of the line undergoing acceleration bending the rod.

Additionally, if the angular momentum of the rod is important at all, should we be trying to increase or decrease it to improve our cast? I can't even get that much out of the theory and would like to know.

Merry Christmas,
Graeme
 

hshl

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silver creek said:
I do have a question for Tobias. By modeling the changes in the moment of inertial toward the rod tip, are you not modeling the "spring effect" of the fly rod?
Hi silver creek, since my investigations are based on experimental data, the spring effect is included.
Hirdy said:
Without a way of using an idea - even if it is just a better explanation of the physics - this theory is just an academic exercise. I can't see how it explains anything nor can I find a way to use it to teach. I can't even use it to improve my own casting.
The redistribution effect is included in all casts more or less, but I think it is important to know that this impact exists and that aside the spring property this impact enables a better energy transfer between the grip and the tip of the fly rod. So maybe there is nothing to improve regarding your cast, Greame, I don't know. Personally I improved my cast by practicing with ultra soft fly rods as I already said:
hshl said:
Personally I recomment to include practicing with very soft fly rods time by time to adjust the casting motions a bit. However, it is worth to be aware that the deflection not only triggers the spring effect ("the load"), but redistributes also the moment of inertia (see annex 2 of my investigations), the angular velocities respectively, so that some kinetic energy could reach the tip of the fly rod.
So I already have answered your question. I think all elements which are useful to trigger the redistribution effect are already known. It is about focussing on some casting motions like e.g. "late butt rotation" Preceding elbow technique in fly casting on Vimeo. There are other well known casting instructors like Henrik Mortensen who recomment "a deeper deflection" to make a good cast. As far as I remember, Henrik talks about a 'pulling motion' to achieve this deflection. So there is not a single key for it.
Hirdy said:
Tobias, if the mass elements of the rod are important in isolation, please make the same casting video without any line on the rod. I'd like to see how you can possibly get a similar angular momentum or fly rod deflection under casting conditions without the mass of the line undergoing acceleration bending the rod.
I don't know what this question should be good for. The fly rod deflects mainly by its own inertia and not so much due to the weight of the fly line (as long as the fly rod is not "overloaded"). I strongly assume the deflection of the fly rod would be similar even casted without a fly line.
Hirdy said:
Additionally, if the angular momentum of the rod is important at all, should we be trying to increase or decrease it to improve our cast? I can't even get that much out of the theory and would like to know.
I think it depends on the casters aim. Aside the spring effect the redistribution effect can reduce the casters effort significantly in some defined situations.
Passion Fliegenfischen >> impact of angular momentum

Cheers, Tobias
 
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Bonesonthebrain

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Taking your eyes off of the fish (target) to watch your back cast can develop a horrible habit and result in a pissed off guide. To me having the sense of timing and feel are a requirement rather than looking, but that is just me. Maybe the first few times when you are learning to cast, but then make it a point not to look.

When back casting into the wind, I know immediately when I have not been aggressive enough (unfortunately happens too often), no need to look. Could not tell you whether it is my rod hand, line hand or a combination of both that ‘tells’ me this, but I sense it. Understandably, this will not happen right away for beginners, but the more you look my guess is the longer it takes to develop the sense of feel.

Wolfglen is spot on, Sliver Creek is on to something, but is using words I can not pronounce nor spell.
 

wjc

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It's been a long time since taking part in any discussions on the board. Been working waaay to much and not fishing at all. But I'd like to say a few things after all this time.

”Taking your eyes off of the fish (target) to watch your back cast can develop a horrible habit and result in a pissed off guide.”

There are no fish in the field where I advocate watching the backcast to see what is happening. If I gave the impression that I advocate watching your backcast while sight fishing, mea culpa.

“ To me having the sense of timing and feel are a requirement rather than looking, but that is just me. Maybe the first few times when you are learning to cast, but then make it a point not to look.”

Gee, all the world class distance casters from Steve Rajeff to Paul Arden to Lass Karlsson and a dozen others watch their backcasts when competing. There must be a reason why. Certainly the best distance fly casters in the world are not all idiots with horrible habits. They are watching everything, alignment, loop size and speed but especially the exact turnaround timing for the forward cast.

Do they watch their backcasts when sight fishing? Ah, I would guess not. Do I watch mine when fishing? Ah, no. Did I watch mine at all during the first 45 or 50 years of fly fishing? Ah, no, except when casting between trees on river riverbanks or lake shores or when high dunes were behind, me for a few practice casts. Fortunately, I spent enough hours doing that to help out my casting.

About 10 years ago, after watching videos of world distance championships, I decided to watch mine when practicing to see how it actually was compared to what it felt like it was, then got into the mechanics of casting.

Have I ever watched my backcast while fishing? Only as mentioned above. When casting to tailing bones, tarpon, sailfish or large lake brookies sipping green drakes – never – not once. How could anybody be that numb? All those fish routinely disappear in a heartbeat, and they don’t swim in straight lines. Speed and accuracy are the key in those fishing situations.

You never take your eyes off them, knowing that you may need to abort the presentation at the last minute, either because they have changed direction or because another fish has popped up in front of them that would be lined by your cast, spooking him (and the rest, if any others.)

I think that habituation to looking at a backcast is BS, and if not, it will quickly be remedied under fishing conditions if the caster is a fisherman and not just a yuppie playing a role. After all, the only thought is to put the fly in front of the fish and get him to eat.

Nearly all new casters have a garbage backcast, and have no idea that they do - unless they see it. Nobody can get a good “feel” for a good backcast until they execute a good one to start with. Most don’t – some for their entire lives.

And the turnaround timing is crucial for a good forward cast regardless of the distance cast.

In the salt, a powerful backcast does several things. It speeds up the cadence of the cast, hence the time it gets to the fish; it can reduce the number of backcasts enormously if line is shot into it; it reduces the sag in the line between rod tip and fly, and (if ingrained into muscle memory) can load the rod prior to rod rotation.

Somebody asked about videos. Here are two I made 5 or so years ago to test out a gopro at 240 frames/second. It is a pickup up and lay down off the asphalt road in front of my house with a 12wt. RPLX circa 1985 – the best tarpon rod ever produced in my opinion.

The line is either an old 550gr billfish line or the rough weight equivalent in an old 12 wt line. Guessing 600 grains on the road. I wrapped the line around 1 foot long board and stuck half of it into black rit clothes dye. So every time you see a yellow section two feet of line has been shot into the backcast. A bunch don’t show up, so you have to kind of interpolate from how fast the other ones have been going through my fingers. The solid line at the end of the cast is backing. It is somewhere between 50 and 56 feet of shooting line.

The first is how much energy can be left at the end of a backcast to straighten and pre-tension both the line and the rod. You will notice in the first how much energy is left as the line unfurls in the backcast as I relax my hand on the rod handle and the extra energy yanks down the rod tip..

http://www.miterclamp.com/videos/pre_load.mp4

The second shows a shoot into the backcast in slow motion from a pickup off the asfault.


http://www.miterclamp.com/videos/fly_forum.mp4

My point is that a strong backcast is necessary for a strong forward cast. That tug on the rod tip as the line ufurls behind you is not something you can ”feel” if it isn’t there, obviously. But an open loop that never straightens out without a huge sag is something you can see, if you are looking at it. If not, the only feel you get is the rod counter-flexing and rebounding.

And if you do feel the line unfurling and tugging on the rod tip before you have repositioned your body for the forward cast, and already begun the "translation" move , you are too late in your turnaround timing for a distance cast, in particular and many others as well.


Shooting into the backcast gains you time to reposition your body for the forward cast – including starting the forward “translation” movement prior to rotation before you clamp off the shooting line.

Though I have been thinking of the salt, the same is true of fishing for trout on lakes or rivers. Control of the fly is only possible if you know what's happening behind you whether you are going for distance or a hook or a puddle or tuck or whatever.

And someone new to casting, in my opinion, can develop a "feel" much faster if he can see what's happening behind him so he can tell what that feel or lack of feel in his line hand and rod hand indicate is happening when he's not looking.
 

Bonesonthebrain

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Big difference when competing for distance casting and fishing, I would venture to say that the vast majority of ‘us’ do not compete, so your comment about Steve Rajeff and bad habits is not relevant. Accuracy and seeing your target are the most important attributes for fishing, distance is a nice to have, hence my comment about bad habits. If you want to nitpick about the exception, rather than the rule, have at it, but I question whether it is constructive or just arguing for the sake of arguing. Seems like you are advocating to keep your training wheels on your bike so you can feel what is happening, yet no one truly learns to ride a bike until the training wheels are off.
 
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