Noob bamboo vs graphite question

Gimmeslack

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After having had a very pleasant visit with a 'local' cane rod builder (Chris Bogart) I got out a quirky little 5'9" Constable rod I've owned for decades, but never really fished. I'll found it to be a very sweet casting rod and noted my loops were nice and tight - I assume attributable at least in part (if not largely) to the rod's diminutive length. Overall it got me thinking 'hmmm mebbe a little 7'-3wt would be a nice investment for those SNP brookie streams'. But I did find one thing that I either didn't like, or would take some getting used to: it felt heavy. I mean physically heavy in the hand and the balance point was an inch or two forward of grip. The casting wasn't 'heavy' but the rod felt totally different to what I've grown used to in modern superlight graphite rods. I mean my new (old) Murray Mountain Scott (6'10" 3wt) feels like it's not even there and balances nicely with a tiny Flyweight reel :-o

So, my question: are modern cane rods generally heavy compared to graphite, or have construction techniques made them comparable?
thx
a
 

silver creek

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A bamboo rod will always be heavier than a comparable graphite rod of similar length and action.

Read my post below:

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/...0-how-efficient-our-fly-rods.html#post1265431

Fly fishers who fish bamboo rods do so BECAUSE they are heavier than graphite rods and that extra mass provides greater feedback when making shorter casts with shorter rods than the traditional 9 ft fly rod.

Also not all bamboo rods are the same. Just because you don't like a particular bamboo rod does not mean you won't find another that "speaks" to you. I personally do not fish bamboo but that does not mean that bamboo cannot be the perfect material for someone else.
 
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boisker

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As silver says... not all rods are equal, especially boo rods..
I’d only cast a couple of old cane rods and found them heavy and lifeless.
A few months ago I got to spend some time casting Luke Bannisters cane rods-
Split cane fishing rods built by Luke Bannister
Split cane fishing rods by Luke Bannister
Wow... what a difference:p
I tried the superfast, Leonard and Garrison... they completely changed my perception of what a cane rod can be... not at all like the noodly, heavy, lifeless soul depressing old cane I’d cast (to be fair, the old rods I cast were probably junk)..
These were light, responsive... quick actioned (for cane)... a joy to cast.
I would happily fish one all day on my Devon rivers (streams in comparison to your big ass rivers)
One day I’ll buy one:D
 

jayr

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Yes, bamboo rods are heavier than graphite pretty much no matter what length.

In order to balance you will probably need a heavier reel or add weight to it.

I have a rod with a Dickerson 7613 taper and it takes a little bit heavier reel to balance but once it did and I got my stroke right, bamboo is very fun to cast and catch fish on.
 

scotty macfly

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I have two cane rods, and at the moment working on a third. The two I have now are both 7' 6" rods, one a 3wt and the other a 4wt. Yes, they are heavier, but the difference in feel when casting and playing a fish in my opinion is worth every oz. of weight in those rods. There are days I just want to slow down and fish boo, and I'm finding out that a 7' 6" 3wt boo rod isn't that heavy that I can't fish the creeks all the time with it, and that's what's happening. I'm actually preferring my cane rod for the creeks that I don't need long casts, and where a delicate presentation is needed. It has become my favorite small rod.

The rod I am having built now is a different story. It will be an 8' 6" 5/6 wt rod, and that will have some heft to it. But from what my builder says, it won't be too much weight to where I'll need to pump iron to use it. These days hollow built rods are becoming popular, where the builder gets rid of the pith and the rod becomes a bit lighter in hand and more like graphite from what I understand. Many cane fans are going to that style of build, but there are some makers who find fault in that type of construction. What fault that is I don't know because my builder said it's a long story and if I really wanted to know it would take some explaining. I told him I didn't care that much to know.

If a person who fishes, and likes slower rods, I believe they should have at least one cane rod in their quiver. But that rod should be something special to that person because as said before by other posts, not all cane rods are the same. And it's not just by the maker either, it's also due to the material. I have tried cane rods by the same maker, same length and weight and taper to find that I may find only one or two that speak kindly to me. Being a natural material, cane has it's personality. That's why a personal rod builder who makes cane rods wants to know what you plan to fish with it, what type of water, size of fish on average, everything possible so they can make you the rod that you are thinking of. Their goal is to make the customer happy because it's their name that's going on that rod. SO when you fish that makers rod, you're basically advertising their craftsmanship. And they don't want to hurt their reputation by making you a rod you wouldn't be pleased with.
 

redietz

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Fly fishers who fish rods do so BECAUSE they are heavier than graphite rods and that extra mass provides greater feedback when making shorter casts with shorter rods than the traditional 9 ft fly rod.
That's exactly why I fish I fish cane. And it's more than just feel. You're trying to impart momentum to the fly line and momentum is mass x velocity. A heavier rod means I can impart the same momentum with a slower casting stroke, and my shoulders hurt less at the end of a day. In 7 foot three weight rod, the difference in weight between graphite and cane is probably less than an ounce; the change in my pocket weighs more than that. The weight difference becomes largely unnoticeable after fishing for ten or fifteen minutes, but by the end of the day I'm far less tired with the cane than carbon.

One thing I might recommend, though, is that instead of a 7 foot three weight, you consider a 7 foot four weight -- I usually like a cane rod one weight heavier than I would for the same purpose with a graphite rod. (A Garrison 201E taper might be a good place to start.)
 

jeep.ster

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My shorter 3wt split cane feel more like graphite because they weight less like graphite. My shortest 3wt is my favorite, an f. e. thomas 6'8" 3wt blonde. Hardly any swing weight. When I fish my 5wt split cane I consider that bringing out the big guns. Regardless there's nothing like the nirvana you get from the vibration of a fish all the way down those power fibers and into your soul.
 

Gimmeslack

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That's exactly why I fish I fish cane. And it's more than just feel. You're trying to impart momentum to the fly line and momentum is mass x velocity. A heavier rod means I can impart the same momentum with a slower casting stroke, and my shoulders hurt less at the end of a day. In 7 foot three weight rod, the difference in weight between graphite and cane is probably less than an ounce; the change in my pocket weighs more than that. The weight difference becomes largely unnoticeable after fishing for ten or fifteen minutes, but by the end of the day I'm far less tired with the cane than carbon.

One thing I might recommend, though, is that instead of a 7 foot three weight, you consider a 7 foot four weight -- I usually like a cane rod one weight heavier than I would for the same purpose with a graphite rod. (A Garrison 201E taper might be a good place to start.)
I warned all that it was a noob question and I did do some homework but really didn't stumble upon any direct answers - this thread has been very helpful. Thanks!

I do have one question about your comment to go one wt higher. Care to elaborate?
 

redietz

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I do have one question about your comment to go one wt higher. Care to elaborate?
One weight up seems to be more compatible with regard to the size flies that I'll use and the size of fish that I care to handle with the rod.* This is my opinion, but I know a few other people who share it -- yymv.

* I'm not implying at all that canes rods are more fragile -- in fact they're harder to break than graphite. I just like to get fish in quickly.
 

dr d

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hi,


i´m owner of a brunner amabile taper in 7 f #3/4.yes it´s heavier (ca.90 gramm)- but for 2-3 hours?...;)

the taper is a refined double reverse so that i can fish delicately between 10-30 f and if

it´s necessarely between 30-60f.line is a cortland sylk or barrio small stream.

rollcast and switch are no problem.feeling and precision good and it is rather med.-fast.


nice we.

thomas


p.s.my graphit´s in this length are lighter(down to 46 gramm) b u t the tip isn´t so stable!
 

trev

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So, how do these all compare in weight to lifting a beverage? a pint is a pound? (plus the mug)
It seems to me that the world may need to invent arm strengthening exercises.
 
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redietz

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So, how do these all compare in weight to lifting a beverage? a pint is a pound? (plus the mug)
To be fair, that pint would feel like it weighed considerably more if the glass it was in were seven feet long.

Still, the overall weight difference between cane and graphite in a 7 foot rod (maybe an ounce or so) isn't so great that it's going to cause anybody's arm to fall off.
 

boisker

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Anyone grumbling of a ‘tired shoulder’ fishing 7’ rods on streams, either has a medical condition/injury or really needs to get a tad fitter...
 

camelbrass

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I use T and T Sextant 9wt and 10wt cane rods in the saltwater quite a bit. They are heavier than the Exocett equivalent and a little tip heavy but nothing that can't be overcome.

They have a remarkably modern feel, and lots of it, in terms of action (not fast but not noodles either) and very strong. I enjoy them


Regards,


Trevor

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk
 

Gimmeslack

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To be clear, i was in no way suggesting anyone's arm would fall off whilst casting cane. I'd never really fondled a cane rod, have since only lawn cast a vintage Constable, and ask about weight in order to edumacate me self.

That said, most graphite reviews tend to focus at least in part, on the weight of rod. I recall researching Kairos rod(s) and the reviews focusing on how heavy the rods were. So, is weight bad in graphite but endearing in cane? And so on...
 

rsagebrush

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You really won't notice the weight until you hit about 8 feet or so, after that graphite is probably superior, not always though. I enjoy most cane from 6 foot to 71/2 foot long. As compared to graphite the feel is quite different.

Fishing cane is a unique experience that one should savor during their lives, it can get spendy though.
 

silver creek

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I should mention that there are limits to what a bamboo rod can do and it should not be asked to do what it cannot do. Shooting the The River Runs Through It is an example.

Jason doubled for both Brad Pitt and Craig Sheffer in The River Runs Through It. You can see Jason double for Sheffler’s young Norman Maclean and do the roll cast at 2:20 in the video below. You know it is Jason because of the the 3 point grip he uses. The cast was made with a bamboo rod.

Then Jason also doubled for Brad Pitt to perform the “Shadow Cast.” To remind you of the cast, the cast sequence is a Galway cast into a Pendulum cast into a Climbing Hook cast into the Forward cast.



Galway


Pendulum


Climbing Hook


Forward Cast


Jason performs the roll cast at 2:20 and shadow cast is at 3:18 in the video.

YouTube

Robert Redford is a stickler for authenticity. Jason was given a bamboo rod to perform the shadow cast and as he was warming up, he told Redford that the bamboo rod would not take the stress of the cast. He could feel that it was about to break. Redford told him to try and after Redford called “action,” the bamboo rod snapped during the cast. Jason was given the backup bamboo rod and he snapped that on as well.

It was only after Robert Redford allowed him to use a Hexagraph composite fly rod, that the signature cast of the movie could be performed. In this case, what Jason Borger envisioned as a shadow cast was limited by the fly rod and not by his ability. The fly cast is a melding of human ability and technology. To limit technology is to limit human ability. So bamboo has it’s place as long as it is not overstressed.
 

trev

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To be clear, i was in no way suggesting anyone's arm would fall off whilst casting cane. I'd never really fondled a cane rod, have since only lawn cast a vintage Constable, and ask about weight in order to edumacate me self.

That said, most graphite reviews tend to focus at least in part, on the weight of rod. I recall researching Kairos rod(s) and the reviews focusing on how heavy the rods were. So, is weight bad in graphite but endearing in cane? And so on...
I think it's safe to say that bamboo must be heavier in cross section than a thin walled hollow plastic tube. It is basically wood, grown with variations and defects that must be worked around when processing the raw material and when assembling and finishing. Each and every rod is unique.

I'll also say that I think the obsession with light weight is more for marketing than it is need. I'm fat, out shape, almost 70 and I can have a very pleasant day with a 4ounce rod, 5.6 ounce reel 7wt line and 1/2# fish. I think the whole rig is just as comfortable as my coffee mug and less tiresome than 16oz. beverages.
I have found out that for most of my fishing a 7.5-8' fiberglass rod suits me best. If the water requires a rod of 8.5' or longer I'd turn to carbon. Differing MOC have different areas of competency and I believe greater than 8'6" is where carbon excels, 7'-8' is where fiberglass shines, and although I've never used a bamboo, I think of it as good at 6'-9' with the shorter being nicer because of felt weight.
 

JDR

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How can bamboo rods be consistent in their casting characteristics? If one tries a bamboo rod from an established maker and really likes the action, how can that person be assured they will get the same action and feel from another of his bamboo rods? Being a natural material, there must has to be variations from one piece of bamboo to another, that could take many forms. How is that controlled? With graphite a known and repeatable formula is used to make each rod nearly identical. I know the easy answer is, "That is what gives bamboo its personality - each rod is different." But isn't that just a cop out when you are paying a minimum of a four figure price tag and you feel the action is different than the rod that influenced you in the first place?
 
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