Overloading a sage x 590-4

Avidone1

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I have a Winston 4wt that I use for dry flies and a sage x 9’ 5 wt that I like for nymphing and streamers but will throw a hopper dropper on it when needed.
I use rio perception 5 wt as recommended by Sage and it does perform well. My issue is feel.
It’s hard to feel the rod load at short distances. I’m thinking about trying a 6 wt to increase the load But don’t want to be excessive in that regard. I understand line weight but am not very knowledgeable regarding taper.
so specifically I’m looking for that excellent combination of weight and taper in a 6 wt that will excel at everything except delicate dry Fly presentations on a powerful 5 wt
Th n you for your thoughts
 

cooutlaw

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Firstly....WELCOME.....Arguably, you are already slightly over lined. The perception is a short headed, short rear taper, front loaded line design on the heavier end of the scale. It's designed to improve rod load at shorter distances to improve close in casting performance. I suspect that what you may be experiencing is comparing the "felt" load of your Winston 4wt to the 590X....apples to meteorites. The Winston (although you did not specify model) is a medium/medium slow action rod, the X is on the moderate end of fast action. I do not believe you would see any benefit in "felt" load with a line change...I fish my 590X with a Rio IT Gold...less front weighted than your perception. I think you might wish to A) Practice and spend more time with your X so the casting tempo becomes more instinctual for you and you begin to "feel" timing rather than looking for felt load...and B) perhaps even get some assistance from a local shop, a guide, or casting instructor so you can garner in person input on what you might be not "feeling". If anything, I'd change the line to lighter RIO Gold and discard the Perception...but I certainly would not go heavier than the perception. Good luck, you'll soon find adjusting to various rod actions will come much easier with more time casting and greater familiarity with individual rods dance tempos.
 

MichaelCPA

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SA Anadro 5wt. It really works well for turning over streamers, indicators, and sinking leaders. I use it on 4, 5, and 6 weight rods :)
 

Noodle

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SA Anadro 5wt. It really works well for turning over streamers, indicators, and sinking leaders. I use it on 4, 5, and 6 weight rods :)
How does that Anadro compare to Infinity? I’m using Infinity on my Radian 904 as an all purpose line (Dry flies, swinging wets, wooly buggers) but I’ve done too much lawn casting (lesson learned) and it sinks fairly quickly. Looking into other options as well as doing infinity again.
 
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MichaelCPA

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Have not used infinity. Anadro has a short tip, long belly and long rear taper, and is 1 weight heavier than infinity....so it is 1.5x heavy. Not delicate, but can spey/roll cast and pull your bobber and stonefly out of the water easily to get out there(I use Loop Opti Stream 5wt). I used it on a Douglas DXF 6wt and could shoot a sinking leader and zonker 60 feet no probs. Big mends are easy.

I would not cast a dry fly, other than a big foam hopper maybe.
 

VaFisherman

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My only Sage X is a 10ft 7wt that I purchased for Indicator Steelhead fishing the Great Lake tributaries. I found it likes Rio Salmon/Steelhead line over the 1 1/2 heavy S.A. Anadro. This particular rod seems to collapse being overlined with more than 25 or 30 ft of line and flies plus indicator.

Now a 10ft rod is a different animal from a 9ft 5wt but both are moderately fast and I don't see overlining a moderately fast rod as an advantage.
 

osseous

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I fish the 590 and 597X. Put a Sci Anglers MPX (5wt) on that rod. It's an excellent combo for all around use. If you want/need a 6 wt, buy a 6 wt rod.

The BEST way to improve "feel" is to better understand the cast. If you cannot feel the rod load, it is because you are not putting a very deep load into it. I always laugh when I read "slow down and let the rod load". If that worked, you could toss the rod on the ground and it would just load itself and throw the line. You load a rod by accelerating, NOT slowing down. YOU load the rod- it doesn't do anything but want to straighten out.

Inability to load the rod is often caused by a back cast that curves in toward your body. All the acceleration in the world isn't going to do much of a forward cast until the line is straight. Straighten that back cast so that your forward stroke is pulling on a straight fly line. I hammer this home with my students and invariably, they comment on how much more they can feel the rod loading.

Throw a straight back cast, and accelerate your hand to a hard stop. You'll load that rod- regardless of which line is on it.

P.S.- when I went to try the X when it first launched, I compared it to BIIIX, my Sage One, and Radian- all in 9' 5 wt. The X had much more feel than the others- and was softer than BIIIX.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 
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fishing hobo

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Sage X 590 is a fine rod. I don't own one but tried it when it came out. As osseous says learn to cast the short distance properly. You do not feel any fast actioned rod at short distance because you don't have much line out the tip to get it to bend deeper, you have to learn the timing for the rod and line. If you cast 20ft, on a 9ft leader you will have only have 2-3 ft of line out the tip.
 

Bigfly

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Really enjoy the X models......A superb casting tool.
I line mine 2 lines up in single hand, and 3 lines up for two handed.
(I've said before that this recommendation came from a Sage rep, and FFF technical caster. He was right.....)
There are two reasons for this.
1. Many clients do not cast well enough to load the rod even partly........so when we are fishing inside 40 feet they get a little more feel.
2. When fishing other than a dry, we need to do more work. A twelve foot leader, a bobber, and several AB split shot, and two flies requires more mass to turn over stuff at range.
I believed the matching line to rod thing for many years. Dry only guys may get fussy about a line, but not those of us who have a variety of approaches, and do more work on the water. Some lean towards tradition, but I am trying to create a new level, not follow along....
I often watch other fishers from a distance. I will guess what line/rod the are using, and rate the amount of work they are doing to get the job done.
Then, I will "wander by" to chat them up, and ask what their rig is? 5wt line on a 5wt rod is the common answer.
But then, I knew that by how hard they were trying.........
Seems like the rule for matching gr. to rod is an east coast thing that has had it's day out here. I don't know a single working guide, or sick local stick that rocks the line at rod manufacturer recommendation. I am frequently fishing a dry on a 9wt line........3 lines up.
If there was a penalty to this uplining thing, I wouldn't do it. It's been standard for me for twenty years.....have yet to harm a rod.
A guide is a little bit like a test pilot. We torture gear and ourselves, to get the max performance possible on the water.
That means there are NO RULES, just testing to the breaking point, then backing off slightly. That is how the envelope is determined, not tradition.
I can see where the rule may have come from the days of glass rods......but is not IMO pertinent to our current top level gear.
One of my pleasures is to convert a classic caster, to a modern approach on our waters. They often go line shopping after a day on the water.

Jim
 
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KenBrown

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I fish the 590 and 597X. Put a Sci Anglers MPX (5wt) on that rod. It's an excellent combo for all around use. If you want/need a 6 wt, buy a 6 wt rod.

The BEST way to improve "feel" is to better understand the cast. If you cannot feel the rod load, it is because you are not putting a very deep load into it. I always laugh when I read "slow down and let the rod load". If that worked, you could toss the rod on the ground and it would just load itself and throw the line. You load a rod by accelerating, NOT slowing down. YOU load the rod- it doesn't do anything but want to straiten out.

Inability to load the rod is often caused by a back cast that curves in toward your body. All the acceleration in the world isn't going to do much of a forward cast until the line is straight. Straighten that back cast so that your forward stroke is pulling on a straight fly line. I hammer this home with my students and invariably, they comment on how much more they can feel the rod loading.

Throw a straight back cast, and accelerate your hand to a hard stop. You'll load that rod- regardless of which line is on it.

P.S.- when I went to try the X when it first launched, I compared it to BIIIX, my Sage One, and Radian- all in 9' 5 wt. The X had much more feel than the others- and was softer than BIIIX.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
Found this through my own trial and error. Slowly backcasting does no good at all. I find the quicker I whip the back cast, the more 'feel' I have when I go to cast the line...
 

mike_r

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Really enjoy the X models......A superb casting tool.
I line mine 2 lines up in single hand, and 3 lines up for two handed.
(I've said before that this recommendation came from a Sage rep, and FFF technical caster. He was right.....)
There are two reasons for this.
1. Many clients do not cast well enough to load the rod even partly........so when we are fishing inside 40 feet they get a little more feel.
2. When fishing other than a dry, we need to do more work. A twelve foot leader, a bobber, and several AB split shot, and two flies requires more mass to turn over stuff at range.
I believed the matching line to rod thing for many years. Dry only guys may get fussy about a line, but not those of us who have a variety of approaches, and do more work on the water. Some lean towards tradition, but I am trying to create a new level, not follow along....
I often watch other fishers from a distance. I will guess what line/rod the are using, and rate the amount of work they are doing to get the job done.
Then, I will "wander by" to chat them up, and ask what their rig is? 5wt line on a 5wt rod is the common answer.
But then, I knew that by how hard they were trying.........
Seems like the rule for matching gr. to rod is an east coast thing that has had it's day out here. I don't know a single working guide, or sick local stick that rocks the line at rod manufacturer recommendation. I am frequently fishing a dry on a 9wt line........3 lines up.
If there was a penalty to this uplining thing, I wouldn't do it. It's been standard for me for twenty years.....have yet to harm a rod.
A guide is a little bit like a test pilot. We torture gear and ourselves, to get the max performance possible on the water.
That means there are NO RULES, just testing to the breaking point, then backing off slightly. That is how the envelope is determined, not tradition.
I can see where the rule may have come from the days of glass rods......but is not IMO pertinent to our current top level gear.
One of my pleasures is to convert a classic caster, to a modern approach on our waters. They often go line shopping after a day on the water.

Jim
While I do not disagree with this, I hardly believe you and your guide friends are breaking any new barriers: Tournament caster’s and subsequent fishers have been building shooting heads to achieve various predictable results for nearly One Hundred years now. Thinking “outside” the box, and creating ‘hacks’ have been around long before smartphones and hashtags.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

silver creek

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I have a Winston 4wt that I use for dry flies and a sage x 9’ 5 wt that I like for nymphing and streamers but will throw a hopper dropper on it when needed.
I use rio perception 5 wt as recommended by Sage and it does perform well. My issue is feel.
It’s hard to feel the rod load at short distances. I’m thinking about trying a 6 wt to increase the load But don’t want to be excessive in that regard. I understand line weight but am not very knowledgeable regarding taper.
so specifically I’m looking for that excellent combination of weight and taper in a 6 wt that will excel at everything except delicate dry Fly presentations on a powerful 5 wt
Th n you for your thoughts
1. A Rio Perception already is a half a line wt class heavier. However. I CANNOT find a published fy line weight chart than lists the actual gram wts of the first 30 feet of Rio Perception fly lines. However there are taper diagrams.

2. If you like the "feel" and performance of the perception, why not try a line size heavier Perception?

3. I doubt anyone can really give you advice unless you are more specific. What length of fly line (not line and leader)is your target casting distance?

But we can tell some things from the taper diagrams below and the AFTMA fly line chart. A 5 wt line should weigh 140 grains with a high of 146 grains.



1. The standard Rio Gold fly line has a longer head than the Rio Perception and the Rio Grand. PLUS the Rio Gold weighs less than the 5 wt Rio Grand and Rio Perception. So the Rio Gold will NOT load the rod as well at shorter distances than the Rio Perception and the Rio Grand. So the Rio Gold is not the line for shorter casts on a stiff fly rod.

2. Both the 5 wt Rio Grand IS a half line size heavier (155 grains) and the Rio Perception is also supposed to be a half line size heavier.

3. The head length of the Rio Grand is is slightly shorter than the Rio Perception BUT the taper is more forward weighted! More mass is in the first 14 feet AND the taper is STEEPER.

4. This means the Rio Grand should load stiffer fly rods more easily for short cast of 14 or shorter feet of fly line out of the guides.

Here is the line taper diagram for the Rio Gold 5 wt line:






Here is the line taper diagram for the Perception 5 wt line:




Here is the line taper diagram for the Rio Grand 5 wt line. A 5 wt Rio Grand weighs 155 grains well above the upper limit of 146 grains of a 5 wt line and almost to the 160 grains of a 6 wt fly line:

 

ryc72

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I’ve fished a 6wt sa mastery Titan (210 grain head so really an 8wt line) on a 6wt 9’7” sage x and thought it felt pretty good. Casting medium sized streamers (3” weighted rabbit strip kind of stuff) and was able to cast 60ish ft with no problem. Could definitely feel the weight of the line. If you’re looking to feel the rod load going two lines up will certainly give you the feedback you’re looking for without a huge sacrifice in distance.
 

trev

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Every graphite 5wt that I have owned worked much better with a DT7 for me, I don't consider it over lining either because 50' of #7 is lighter than 70' of #5.
 

osseous

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Following the logic in this thread, you're gonna chuck a 10 or 11 wt line at a tailing Bonefish? Good luck with that. There is a reason for line ratings- line speed and a tight loop have presentation advantages, compared to just adding line weight to the system. The rod needs to load....but it also needs to unload. Think of a 5 wt rod delivering its stored energy to an 8 wt line, and how the ability of that rod to rebound is compromised. People will spend $1200 on an Asquith, but they won't spend a dime on a casting lesson to learn how to really dance with the thing?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
 

Noodle

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Following the logic in this thread, you're gonna chuck a 10 or 11 wt line at a tailing Bonefish? Good luck with that. There is a reason for line ratings- line speed and a tight loop have presentation advantages, compared to just adding line weight to the system. The rod needs to load....but it also needs to unload. Think of a 5 wt rod delivering its stored energy to an 8 wt line, and how the ability of that rod to rebound is compromised. People will spend $1200 on an Asquith, but they won't spend a dime on a casting lesson to learn how to really dance with the thing?

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
I like to fish as light a fly line as I can comfortably cast. I don’t have the skills to underline my rods and still enjoy it, but true to weight lines are my preference until the big stuff comes out. Mass moves mass and all that. I tried over lining by a little over a full line size and I hated it. Maybe for lobbing streamers but only in specific instances would I do that.

I’m still learning though so don’t take my word for anything as my preferences are still taking shape while I gain experience. Can’t wait for casting lessons to resume.


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Bigfly

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While I do not disagree with this, I hardly believe you and your guide friends are breaking any new barriers: Tournament caster’s and subsequent fishers have been building shooting heads to achieve various predictable results for nearly One Hundred years now. Thinking “outside” the box, and creating ‘hacks’ have been around long before smartphones and hashtags.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Mike, a shooting head would not work for what we do. it would give me more distance, but also an inability to mend worth a shite.
Besides, we aren't using an overhand cast, just roll, waterload. and snap T casts. Much sneakier.......Although I can huck a cast overhand, the overhand cast is not used do to tightness of alders etc. Besides, falsecasting puts fish down.
The drift is most important thing for spooky fish, and the mend is the most important thing for drift. So distance is only part of the problem.
Another part of this, is I use the long rod (11ft) to hold line off the water. Less line on the water, means a better drift. A 9ft 5wt can't come close to doing what I need done. Remember, I did use the 9ft 5wt with a 5 or 6wt line for 30 years before I made this jump.
I did try this approach with a 6wt line on the rod, and there wasn't enough mass to mend way over there. Then I went to a 7wt, etc...
Unless a person is unconnected to their observations, they will learn what works better through trial and error with their rod or casting ability.
As a working guide, not a recreational fisher, I try it all and see..........not just continue doing what everyone else is doing, because I already did....
We do what we are taught at first, but if you do it long enough, you CAN experiment. As far as inventing hacks, I did not originate this overline technique used here. As I said, it was suggested to me by an even more experienced fisher/Sage rep/FFF instructor....so I tried it. (I'm open...)
This experiment has payed huge benefits, by allowing me to hook up with fish that are out of range of many if not most fishers. Many fish here that are within range of normal fishers, are highly pressured. Fishing in the next county gives better stats.
I do not think I'm a competition caster...I prefer casting on water, to fish.... I know I'm a fish catcher......and a teacher.
If you are open to new, and stood in my shoes (or next to me) for a day fishing you might change your mind.
But, I'm not here to change minds.........just sharing what works here. I don't just make this stuff up so I can post.
You will never see me post like some threads....."I don't do what you are talking about but I have an opinion on it....." Or talking about trout and Bonefish comes up?
And as I've learned over almost 50 years, you can't convince a fish hero to change, they have to admit they have a problem first.
It took the Truckee river, and a bunch of fishing/skunk to make me admit I was a fish hero.......been getting better ever since.
Stay safe out there, but don't let up.

Jim
 
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sweetandsalt

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Here comes that East Coast true line weight guy... I am not a guide and don't have clients who are novice casters with need to get line out there. I only have one X and it the smaller 8 1/2'/#5 and really enjoy it as adry fly only rod. For the first year I fished it I used RIO's IT Gold which is a 5-eight but at the upper 146 gr. end of the window. The rod fished great....but then RIO Introduced their true to weight with a twice as long front taper Technical Trout and I tried one. To my delight it loaded the X perfectly and actually enhanced its loop shapes and presentation chops. X's already feature superb tip recovery and this slightly (6 gr. isn't much) lighter line sharpened this rods reflexes even more and that is what precision line matching to a given rod is all about, getting it to load optimally without dulling via overload its responsiveness and recovery. Now I'm referring to casting a dry fly not hucking a payload and heavier lines have advantages under varying techniques but as said before, if you don't "feel" the load it is likely not the line but casting technique that is the issue.
 

Noodle

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Mike, a shooting head would not work for what we do. it would give me more distance, but also an inability to mend worth a shite.
Besides, we aren't using an overhand cast, just roll, waterload. and snap T casts. Much sneakier.......Although I can huck a cast overhand, the overhand cast is not used do to tightness of alders etc.
The drift is most important thing for spooky fish, and the mend is the most important thing for drift. So distance is only part of the problem.
Another part of this, is I use the long rod (11ft) to hold line off the water. Less line on the water, means a better drift. A 9ft 5wt can't come close to doing what I need done.
I did try this approach with a 6wt line on the rod, and there wasn't enough mass to mend way over there. Then I went to a 7wt, etc,
Unless a person is unconnected to their observations, they will learn what works better through trial and error with their rod or casting ability.
It sounds like what you are talking about is more spey tactics than those that a lot of the other folks are using/discussing. Isn't overlining for spey basically expected, with longer heads for mending as you mentioned? Especially considering you mention the 11 ft rod. If thats what you are getting at, and you are suggesting that you can fish further away and be sneakier while doing it, I can totally see that being a great approach. It just sounds very much like the single handed spey discipline rather than the more overhead/side casting approaches. It strikes me as a different conversation.

I've actually been wanting to try that here. Spey sounds like a good plan for the Hooch tailwater since much of it isn't suitable for wading. Streamers are also big here so it would make sense.
 
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