Quit pimping the water

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corn fed fins

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I started this post in an effort to allow another thread to be left alone. As many here know I have great disdain for publications(books, magazines, social media) that disclose locations. The damage it creates is beyond words. Many waters are well known and there is minimal impact when using them. As a result, these waters get the focus from DNRs. They get the enforcent. They get the attention period. Even worthy guides will put their foot down and call people out, after all it is their livelihood being trampled. Lesser waters don't get the DNR attention. The state's do not have the resources to cover every bit of water. As a result, these "lesser" waters are prone to suffer from from what an onslaught of people do just by being people. Anyhow, out of respect for the magazine thread, post your rants here. Or did I disclose a location and now it's too late?
 

Bigfly

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We come from another time....
I found fish, by getting a map and looking for blue lines, then went and looked....
Now we can sit at a computer and see it from space.
Publicity is part of my business, but a curse as well. Why would I call in an artillery strike on my own position?
While I stand there ethically quiet, some kid who wants a by-line and a photo credit moves to town and does an article.
We have a mag near here whose publisher once tried to convince me that sharing unknown or gems should be publicized to spread the pressure around. That was twenty years ago, and I still haven't done it.
But other young guides have to get their name out there. These guys often do slide shows at rec shows.....
They get more trips than I do, but I can sleep at night....

Jim
 

jayr

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Satellite imagery doesn't really concern me, it is the posting on the numerous boards names of bluelines with pics and/or trip reports about how great the fishing was and then the ability to use any of the dozens of search engines to find these posts just by asking about fishing and naming a general geographic area.
 

rsagebrush

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I was in the Reno Fly Shop (Dave Stanley) and some sports broadcaster approached me and told me Dave said you travel all over the State (True) could we do a show on various fishing locations you visit, I just laughed at him and said they wouldn't be so secret anymore, boy did he get agitated, what a dipstick ( I bet he wears 2 masks). I fished all over the Country when I was consulting and never once did I feel the need to ferret out special information from someone, sure if they volunteered that was fine, but the smarter one's never did unless they figured there was something in it for them.
I was in the exploration business, none of us ever volunteered information on where to find juicy prospects either. People should find they're own special spots but I guess a lot just don't have the skills or imagination.
 

Acheron

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These attitudes are driven by entitlement in my opinon. The thought that some spot on a river, the entire river, a lake, a hole, whatever is "yours" and shouldn't be shared due to it only being there for your experience and enjoyment for how it is today. How fascinating!

In short I would reply...Life is not static.

But I'm long winded and opinionated too, so....

Why does one person or group of people have permission to discuss fisheries but others don't get such permission? I've never heard a reason that actually holds water. Usually it's the same old argument...they didn't put in their time, they're blowin up our rock, they are lazy and looking for easy info, or something similar. Pardon my ignorance, but exactly where does one ask for permission to do a powerpoint at a fly show on a particular river or lake?

This argument, and the practice of selective reporting, has been going on for longer than the internet, for instance, if you knew the shop owner you'd get great info and if not you'd get what he has most in stock. :D It's true!

For the record, I don't appreciate small places being named either and think it's in the resources' best interest if names of small fisheries are left out of reports and discussions. The known/famous rivers...honestly, there's 50 years of presentations worth on those places already so at this point, like Queen said, nothing really matters.

So when I kid moves to town and starts a new vlog and insta posting your honey hole on a famous river, post some comments with tips and encouragement. Then reach out to them and see if you can help them understand the resource, its' importance, and why not all resources (lakes, rivers, etc.) are equal.

I would say just because they have different tools than we had to build with, doesn't mean they are building anything different. They also might be buiding something better, so have a look and you might learn. Most importantly, if no one teaches them the value of the resource, they might never learn and worse, they might just exploit it...which is our biggest fear!

Btw, I realize there are people creating fake social media information to make names for themselves. What's really disgusting for the sport is to see someone catch a fish or two, put them in a boat live-well, then take pictures from various angles while wearing multiple outfits to make it appear they caught fish on different outings. People who do such should have their licenses revoked. Those fish died, or were likely already dead, and that attitude and approach to the game is the sad side of the "look at me" culture of social media. There are a lot of smart people out there and these people are usually found out eventually.

There's my 50 cents :D
 

Hayden Creek

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These attitudes are driven by entitlement in my opinon. The thought that some spot on a river, the entire river, a lake, a hole, whatever is "yours" and shouldn't be shared due to it only being there for your experience and enjoyment for how it is today. How fascinating!

In short I would reply...Life is not static.

But I'm long winded and opinionated too, so....

Why does one person or group of people have permission to discuss fisheries but others don't get such permission? I've never heard a reason that actually holds water. Usually it's the same old argument...they didn't put in their time, they're blowin up our rock, they are lazy and looking for easy info, or something similar. Pardon my ignorance, but exactly where does one ask for permission to do a powerpoint at a fly show on a particular river or lake?

This argument, and the practice of selective reporting, has been going on for longer than the internet, for instance, if you knew the shop owner you'd get great info and if not you'd get what he has most in stock. :D It's true!

For the record, I don't appreciate small places being named either and think it's in the resources' best interest if names of small fisheries are left out of reports and discussions. The known/famous rivers...honestly, there's 50 years of presentations worth on those places already so at this point, like Queen said, nothing really matters.

So when I kid moves to town and starts a new vlog and insta posting your honey hole on a famous river, post some comments with tips and encouragement. Then reach out to them and see if you can help them understand the resource, its' importance, and why not all resources (lakes, rivers, etc.) are equal.

I would say just because they have different tools than we had to build with, doesn't mean they are building anything different. They also might be buiding something better, so have a look and you might learn. Most importantly, if no one teaches them the value of the resource, they might never learn and worse, they might just exploit it...which is our biggest fear!

Btw, I realize there are people creating fake social media information to make names for themselves. What's really disgusting for the sport is to see someone catch a fish or two, put them in a boat live-well, then take pictures from various angles while wearing multiple outfits to make it appear they caught fish on different outings. People who do such should have their licenses revoked. Those fish died, or were likely already dead, and that attitude and approach to the game is the sad side of the "look at me" culture of social media. There are a lot of smart people out there and these people are usually found out eventually.

There's my 50 cents :D
I don't know man. I've been accused of holding my cards too close with fishing and climbing info. I do both these activities to get away from people. Entitlement? No. I just feel no obligation to share this info. Put in the time and work I did to find it.
Then we can share a beer and talk about it.
 

Bigfly

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I've posted on the T for over 15 years, and have taken pains to frame fish photos so it isn't obvious exactly where it happened.
I post how to fish, not where.
I don't do much posing with my fish, but often share prideful guests.
Not going to do drone footage, or utube, instachat, pods, or hero videos.....
I've seen the change here in 30 years.
My new least favorite thing is, 7 fisher clinics for euro tech. Humans being creatures of habit, will come back to that spot. With the friend who has 6 friends.Every weekend, all summer, x, 4 clinics....
Treat water like it's your go to, and someday, it won't be.

Jim
 
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ed from bama

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Good afternoon to all-

We've had this conversation before, and to be honest, I tend to agree with Cornfed's original position. There are waters- usually small, unknown waters that just can't stand a whole lot of pressure. These waters need to be protected. The best way to protect them? Just be evasive about the name and the specific location.
Any real outdoor writer worth his/her salt knows how and when to do this. I do believe that folks who are not experienced in the word biz often commit the sin of naming names and giving locations.
And to be honest, even being secretive about the small waters is often not enough. An example: there's a small flow fairly close my home. it's kayak water. It's a coastal creek which flows into a large bay which empties into the Gulf. this little creek is small enough that any more than a couple of kayaks paddling down often puts the fish down- saltwater fish can be just as touchy as any freshwater trout, let me assure you. And this little creek has a good population of tiny baby tarpon which spend the winter there in the springs which feed the creek.
But this winter a local Facebook feller posted a trip account of this creek he made and in which he caught some mini-tarpon. He never named the creek, and he never named where it was located. Didn't matter. Since that publicity, I haven't been to the creek without having several kayaks being on the water there. And I haven't caught my mini-tarpon yet, either.
It's all about discretion. some waters- like the Gulf of Mexico are huge and can stand the pressure. others, like small creeks, can't handle much pressure. There's a lot to be said for keeping one's own counsel and being close-mouthed- when it's appropriate.

good day to all- Ed
 

Acheron

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I don't know man. I've been accused of holding my cards too close with fishing and climbing info. I do both these activities to get away from people. Entitlement? No. I just feel no obligation to share this info. Put in the time and work I did to find it.
Then we can share a beer and talk about it.
Nothing wrong with that! I have fly patterns I don't share :D

Any real outdoor writer worth his/her salt knows how and when to do this. I do believe that folks who are not experienced in the word biz often commit the sin of naming names and giving locations.

good day to all- Ed
Spot on. And if you don't know, you don't know! Which is why we need to keep preaching the "why" behind the unwritten rules so they can become aware.


I've posted on the T for over 15 years, and have taken pains to frame fish photos so it isn't obvious exactly where it happened. I post how to fish, not where.
I don't do much posing with my fish, but often share prideful guests.
Not going to do drone footage, or utube, instachat, pods, or hero videos.....
I've seen the change here in 30 years.
My new least favorite thing is, 7 fisher clinics for euro tech. Humans being creatures of habit, will come back to that spot. With the friend who has 6 friends.Every weekend, all summer, x, 4 clinics....
Treat water like it's your go to, and someday, it won't be.

Jim
Agree on a lot of this! I do the same thing with pics. I have seen people use mountains, rocks, shadows, distance people say they drive, compare pictures over time, etc. to pin point spots with extremely high levels of accuracy. It's impressive but let's say I wouldn't want them dating my daughter ;)

I also don't care for the drone footage and all that but things like this are going to drive the next generation of fisherpeople who support the sport. I don't like that videos all start with ~2-3 minutes of themselves catching fish instead of showing the dang fly tying tutorial or talking about the actual topic. It's kind of like reading someone's childhood granparents story to get to the recipe...I'm hungry dammit! :D :D

Anyways...whether we like it or not, bringing new people to the sport is how it will grow and some of these folks are doing it. Let's hope they keep those classes on one hole and not blow the entire river, at least. You have to learn sometime and somewhere! :)

It's really awesome to see other people begin their foray into this like I did a long time ago. We all travelled various paths to get here and each path is different, so we should be show others the cool parts of our path when we want :) Just think, there some kid out there who is going to wonder if a downstream hookset is the best...and we'll be here to help!! :D :D :D

And besides, is it really fishing without a cork sucking, stiff armed, hero pose? :D :D Wait, that's for such forums as the Drake...we are much more civilized here!!
 
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corn fed fins

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I don't think its responsible for ANY group to exploit any water. Even the renowned fisheries have suffered since I was old enough to drive. This isn't pollution or loss of habitat or climate change but the sheer numbers of people. How many times a day/week/month can a fish get caught and survive? Well, when you become the focus of attention of hundreds your survivability declines, Princess Diana might agree. The numbers of big fish are gone from the Plattes, Blue, Pan, Taylor, Juan..... There are still trophy fish but you'll have to work for them and trust in a bit of luck they ventured below the no fishing boundaries. ,

Of course you get different treatment when you patron a shop and they know you by name rather than some individual walking in and asking for info on skinny waters. I have stood there and listened to this time and time again, in multiples of shops. These people get directed to the same small streams that I can only lable as sacrificial. They hold lots of stocked fish and any tourist would be happy. When they leave the conversations switch. Sorry but even the shop folks understand they are protecting their future. I spend more in my local shop in a year than 10 tourists. So keeping the local guy happy better be part of the business plan.

Here's the rub. Go look at the age brackets of local fishing clubs. Then go look at the age bracket of the YouTube poster and viewers (Most have profiles). Youth doesn't have the time to care about the issues faced by the rivers they are pimping. If you read down through the comments you begin to see how many people get angry if location is given; they have witnessed the effects. There is a slow change. The hate comments start driving direction. Magazines and books should reevaluate. Maybe have an article discussing the effects of them publicing waters? Maybe then all the readers would understand they are their own worst enemy. Destination fisheries and guide services can still keep their 3 pages of their featured advertisement article. They are mostly BS anyway. Nothing is funnier than reading about some guides miracle midge pattern with a steamer attached to the rod in the picture of him holding a fish. Lmao

I am of a different generation, a generation where effort was rewarded. I have driven miles to find only a dry creek. I have driven miles to find that a stream was mostly private. I've had more than my share of disappointments. What this taught me was to cherish whatever you find.

I don't take this position for myself. I've been there and done that. Frankly, if I was told I could never fish again, I'd be disappointed but whatever. What I attempt and support is to keep places off the radar so others can enjoy what I have enjoyed. When do we listen to the words of our fathers(mentors) when they said "I can remember fishing here and...never see a soul....catch such and such.... see this or that...."? The last thing I want is to take my niece and nephew to a place and repeat those same words. I want it to be better but I know that is hopeless so I'll settle for the same.

There is no stopping it but is can be slowed.
 

corn fed fins

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I've posted on the T for over 15 years, and have taken pains to frame fish photos so it isn't obvious exactly where it happened. I post how to fish, not where.
I don't do much posing with my fish, but often share prideful guests.
Not going to do drone footage, or utube, instachat, pods, or hero videos.....
I've seen the change here in 30 years.
My new least favorite thing is, 7 fisher clinics for euro tech. Humans being creatures of habit, will come back to that spot. With the friend who has 6 friends.Every weekend, all summer, x, 4 clinics....
Treat water like it's your go to, and someday, it won't be.

Jim
The T is a pretty well known water. With a populous that close, I'd still keep it close.
 

joelp

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do things the way you think they should be done. it's all you can control.

the stupid out there these days will eat you up if you let it. figure that's always been true to a certain extent though.
 

corn fed fins

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I
There are some places I know where I won't even fish myself more than once a month. They're too small to take any kind of pressure.

I surely am not going to pass those locations along in any public forum.
Funny you say this. I "found" a creek not far from me. I fished it many times. Turned out that a year or so later CPW discovered the fish were endangered Colorado cutthroat. There are several downstream barriers that allowed the population to flourish. They just looked like pretty cutts to me. When I spoke to the biologist about this stream his first words were "Don't tell anyone". So, I have kept that "secret" and have never returned. I have always though that was pretty cool and I hope everything I put back lived. Lol
 

ed from bama

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Good evening to all-

What we have here is a balance- or it needs to be a balance.
There are some places out west- Colorado, Utah, even Montana- that I'd love to fish. It will take me days to drive out there, and when I get there, I won't have time to work my way into knowledge of the streams. Boy, I'd love for someone- anyone- to give me a little direction to streams/lakes/flows that I might actually catch a fish in.
The balance is- I won't EVER be back to this place again- however much I'd like to. I can't make much effect on the water, no matter how small it might be. So, telling me where to fish is really not going to affect the long-term health of the water much at all.
But if someone who actually lives in the area gets loads of free information that he/she can exploit easily and often- that might affect the fishery.
The balance comes from who gets free information and specific directions. And that's the hard part. How to let the short-timer know where to catch a couple of fish and at the same time not telling some yahoo who is local where he/she can go and clean up on fish.

The information sharing business is not easy. I suppose that one solution is to not tell anyone anything about the fishing. but, Lord, there is not much fun in that, now is there?

good evening to all- Ed
 

benglish

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In the end, it is a PUBLIC resource meant to be used by the PUBLIC. I don't tend to divulge info. but far be it for me to judge anyone else.
 

rsagebrush

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I hear ya Ed, still new areas and new water I look at like an adventure and I seem to do fine, at least my definition of fine. One can not expect to access a new area and be completely successful the first time, that's just how it is. Still every success is earned, I find new things all the time in my home area and waters, I look at it like a continuing discovery. It's not all that much fun to me if it's too easy.
 

dynaflow

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In Monte Burkes recent brilliant book "Lords of the Fly" he discusses how a couple of local guys tipped off Lefty Kreh about the Homassasa Tarpon fishery in the early seventies when it was relatively unknown.....big mistake as Lefty was a prominent broadcaster of anything fly fishing related and soon the place was swarming with sports.
 

Ard

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Twenty thousand four hundred fifty seven posts on this board alone. Another few thousand on the Spey Pages board and a couple more on our SFF board and you will be hard pressed to find the mention of a river or creek. Big rivers, big glaciated flows that I use as highways to reach our cabin 75 miles out by boat I have mentioned because you cannot fish them but where I fish? Never.

You can find a story in the Blogs here titled How I Became a Fishing Guide but there's something left out of it........... I've fished with people from Germany, Switzerland, France, the UK, Japan and of course many of our States but I never took any locals. I saw that as a clear and present danger because everyone has a 'buddy' who fishes. Every 'buddy' has two kids and most 'buddies' work somewhere with a bunch of guys who either own or plan to buy a river boat.

I've posted here so many times through the past 13 years about the dangers of telling where you fish that I can't remember them all. Many are in the blogs, I'll tell you how to fish like I do but I won't tell you where to fish. That's the problem we face today, people want others to know that they did well fishing but then they tell where......... When I read those posts I figure they are new to this and think it's like sharing the name of a good restaurant online or posting about a smoking hot sale on the new wonder rod that'll make you a better fisherman. Or the drag you must have to land a fish the size of bait.......

What could I do? I've thought about deleting or editing every post I've found that contains proprietary and logistical information about a fishery but that will do nothing but drive people away from posting. I've posted threads about not doing exactly this and posted about handling fish properly as in the Food for Thought thread in the Lodge Den but to what greater good? Members become offended. Offended because some so and so has told them they shouldn't mention the creek. Offended because the same holier than thou so and so has chastened them over the fish pictures............

If members want to change the mindset then you need to lead by example. I know that some of you visit other forums, some of you use many other forums as well as FB and such. You have to call them out! Tell people that they are running their mouths about things that should be whispered and not posted to the whole viewing world. Trust me, you may not be 'Liked' as much as when you were silent but then all it takes for bad people to prevail is for the good people to do nothing.

Quite dramatic I think but since I've already typed that I'll leave it be.



Wonder where I caught that steelhead.................... Never told and never removed that male from the water, just reclained my #8 hook and left go of that tail.
 
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