Replicating a Leader

brokeoff

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I'm trying to replicate a leader that I have. Can anyone tell me if this leader formula makes send to them?

Its about a 15' leader with tippet.

Edit:

I'm removing the leader breakdown because it occurred to me that the guide that gave me the leader might not want divulge the exact formula to me, let alone a fly fishing forum. Or maybe he was just busy. Better to be save.

Good news, I learned that we use diameter and not break strength for building leaders.
 
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silver creek

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The formula is incomplete,

The formula lacks the brand of monofilament used in each section of the leader before you get to the tippet material. So we do not know the DIAMETER of the of the material. Lb test is NOT diameter and diameter is what is needed. Secondly, the brand of the material tells us the stiffness as well as the diameter.

Most formulas will specify whether the material is Mason hard mono or Cortland Chameleon for the butt sections. It will also specify what the transition sections are.

If the leader is a contact nymphing leader, it will specify what the sighter sections are, for example, colored Stren.

You are going to buy 6 spools of mono for this leader. It would be a shame to buy the wrong material.
 

joe_strummer

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Seems possible, but leader segments should be expressed in diameter rather than breaking strength, as mass is what's important until you get to the tippet.

Consider 16# Mason hard nylon = .020" and 20# Mason hard nylon is .022", while Rio Fluoroflex Saltwater 35# is .021". If I build by breaking strength and ignore material, I get wildly different leaders from that formula. When you end up with big differentials in diameter, the smaller differential in density won't matter.
 

Rip Tide

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A good trout compound leader should be tied according to the diameter of the material, not the pound test and each step down should not be more than 2/100ths of an inch
For a long leader like that, you need to start with a heavy butt.
19/100s for a light line (3-4wt) 21/100s for 5/6wt
You want your formula to work out to approximately 40% butt, 20 % mid, 40% tip (bass and saltwater are more like 60-70% butt)

There's plenty of formulas on line, but the one you describe isn't going to work that well
 

brokeoff

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The formula is incomplete,

The formula lacks the brand of monofilament used in each section of the leader before you get to the tippet material. So we do not know the DIAMETER of the of the material. Lb test is NOT diameter and diameter is what is needed. Secondly, the brand of the material tells us the stiffness as well as the diameter.

Most formulas will specify whether the material is Mason hard mono or Cortland Chameleon for the butt sections. It will also specify what the transition sections are.

If the leader is a contact nymphing leader, it will specify what the sighter sections are, for example, colored Stren.

You are going to buy 6 spools of mono for this leader. It would be a shame to buy the wrong material.
Okay, so the leader I am trying to replicate is brown. I thought that meant that it was Maxima. I guess Mason comes in brown too? His leader material seemed darker than the Maxima that arrived two days ago.

I'm trying to get some more info now.
 

silver creek

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Okay, so the leader I am trying to replicate is brown. I thought that meant that it was Maxima. I guess Mason comes in brown too? His leader material seemed darker than the Maxima that arrived two days ago.

I'm trying to get some more info now.
It probably is Maxima Chameleon.
 

Rip Tide

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I use mostly Orvis Superstrong now, but i have a set of the Maxima here too

25# would be .020"
20#---- .017"
15# ---.015"
12# ---.013"
10# ---.012"
8# ----.010"
6# -----.009"
4# -----.007"
3# ---- .006"

You don't want to be using Maxima for your tippet...... TOO STIFF
 

sweetandsalt

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Yes, diameter not #test for sure and relative stiffness/suppleness too. I for one, after doing a good bit of research, long ago deleted Mason and all Maxima types from my kit. Modern copolymers for trout and Fluorocarbon for salt for me. And I eschew formulas. When not employing a superior Braided or Nylon Furled upper leader for trout but making a 100% Nylon monofilament leader, I purpose build it for the intended application...lets say a 6-weight line to fish brown drake spinners.

I'll start with a .022 4' butt of moderate mono like stiffer RIO, Orvis Super Strong or lower down, Trouthunter and I'll want a steep mid taper for positive turn over of larger flies so 18" of .019, 12" .017, 10" .015, .013 and 0X then switch to more supple mono like RIO Powerflex Plus, 18" of 2X and 4' of 3X. If I decide I need 4 or 5X so I cut back the 3X and build down. As I Blood Knot on each section I "parabolic test" it to the previous to assure I'm achieving my intended linear diminution in energy transfer with no hinging and checking each knot for breakage. Truth is I gave inches but do not actually measure, I go by feel and when casting I may cut back in and alter a length of transitional mono. When done, I'll soak the leader in warm water then hang it with a bit of weight on the tippet so it dries straight with no memory.

Many years ago when Orvis Super Strong was new and I liked it, I built a salmon leader out of it exclusively. Fishing a famed pool on the Miramichi I lost a bright fish of about 17 lb. in the end game and my guide gave me a hard time about not using strongly traditional Maxima. I furrowed my brow then showed him the end of the tippet with the tell-tale curlicue of where the Turle Bend he tied had slipped out, not broken. The new fly I tied on myself using a double pass through Clinch I devised for loop eyed salmon irons...that did not come un-done.
 

labradorguy

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Never let someone else tie on your fly. Yeesh.... You know better than that.

PS- tried sending you a pm but your box is full.....
 

brokeoff

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Never let someone else tie on your fly. Yeesh.... You know better than that.

PS- tried sending you a pm but your box is full.....
Yes, I lost a permit. Guide’s knot from tippet to fly failed. Then I started doing all my own knots in the salt...until my improved blood knot failed from 30# to 16# on my best bonefish ever hooked.

Mailbox should be freed up a bit.
 

dillon

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I lost a steelhead on the grab, once, because my double Turle knot broke. I knew something was wrong when I tied it, but I was in a hurry to start fishing, so I didn’t retie. Fool me once...

I don’t care what anyone says, I still use Maxima clear for my steelhead leaders and tippets, and always will. I have seen Trout leaders built with Maxima brown for the heavy butt end sections, but have never built or used one. Although it did look cool on the cane rod the guy was fishing...
 

trev

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I've tried a few things over the years beginning with Mason in the '70s and have been most satisfied overall with Chameleon down to 5X. I don't like to mix brands because the stiffness varies so much that a smaller diameter can be stiffer than a larger one. Or a soft piece can end up between two hard sections giving a hinge. Below 5X any premium tippet works for me.
I no longer use a formula, but tie and cut according to how a chosen fly works under current conditions, but there are tons of workable formulas and any can be made longer or shorter by simply adding or subtracting an inch or two in each section.
examples:
http://www.skittfiskelillesand.com/s04/Fortom utregner fra amerikanske maal til europeiske.pdf

Leader Formulas | Upper Creek Angler

ACA Leader Formulas
 

sweetandsalt

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Dillon, If you bring a loop eye steelhead fly with you I will show you my knot I like for it and you can tell me your opinion.
 

sweetandsalt

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What do you mean by loop eye? I only use up eye irons when tying a fly on a hook.
A loop eye is an up eye return bend as opposed to a closed ring eye on a trout hook. It is what you use.

Salmon Iron.jpg

And my knot, importantly, comes out through the eye straight like a Turle Bend but is strong and slip proof.
 

dillon

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A loop eye is an up eye return bend as opposed to a closed ring eye on a trout hook. It is what you use.

View attachment 21519

And my knot, importantly, comes out through the eye straight like a Turle Bend but is strong and slip proof.
Yes, that is the style hook I use for hairwings and Spey patterns. I think you did show me that knot one time, but maybe not. I’ll take a look again, but I’m comfortable with my turle. Change is hard... :)
 

brokeoff

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There's plenty of formulas on line, but the one you describe isn't going to work that well
Can you tell me why you don’t think this leader is going to work very well? The reason I’m trying to replicate it is because it did work well.
 

sweetandsalt

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Yes, that is the style hook I use for hairwings and Spey patterns. I think you did show me that knot one time, but maybe not. I’ll take a look again, but I’m comfortable with my turle. Change is hard... :)
And this from a former senior professional educator? Experimentation leading to change is vital to learning and expanding. The Turle Bend is a notoriously weak tippet to fly connection remaining traditional to salmon/steelhead anglers only due to the typically heavier Maxima tippet used and its virtue of maintaining alignment with the fly. As you know I quite a while ago gave up my annual Atlantic salmon fishing in large part due to sever decline in their multi sea year populations but if I did fish for them again it would be with modern tippet technology, perhaps even Fluorocarbon, and sound knots.
 
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