Unbelievable,frightening,sad....

okaloosa

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"be fruitful and multiply" is what will do us in as a species. That in and of itself would not be a problem, but we have mostly stopped killing each other and we keep saving the lives of people that might die.
unsustainable increases in population always end badly: famine, warfare, pandemics......
Over millions of years all plastic will settle to the ocean floor either as free micro plastics or within the bodies of living organisms. It will eventually be taken down into the earths mantle via subduction at the plate boundaries. Subjected to the tremendous heat and pressure within the earths mantle what it will emerge as, via volcano's etc., is anyone's guess but the earth will recycle it as something.
one thing for sure...humans wont be around when that happens,,,we will have been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years....
just another failed trial in evolution.... in the meanwhile I think I will go fishing,,,,,,
 

trev

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I'd go fishing but the creeks are bank full of plastic debris disguised as kayaks and have been since spring.
 

LePetomane

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If littering offends you and you fish the Bighorn River in Montana, go to Fort Smith through Hardin instead of Crow Agency. The littered streets at CA are absolutely disgusting.
 

bigspencer

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Nature can't undo plastic- we can't even really recycle it, the earth won't fix itself, but of course that won't matter because we won't be here.
...But we could collect it and launch it en' mass in a one-way trip rocket, programmed for a rendevous with the sun....but I guess this has been discussed-down financially....Really!!!???? The wealthier-middleclass wants to split hairs on expenditures while the rest of us are forced to live with
a version of this......:rolleyes:
 

Ard

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Having actually worked for a consortium of the largest NGO environmental groups in America way back in the 1980's I have been aware of the extent of depraved degradation of the planet for a very long time. You may ask; If you really care then why aren't you still active as a liaison or organizer? I believe the proper term is burnout. Burnout happens to some and I believe especially with those who aren't involved because of the salary. When you really truly care, when you devote all of your time to study and attempt to sway the general public into supporting better environmental protections for all of the people on the earth there will come significant pushback.

I always equated the work with being on a sinking ship far from land. Some of the passengers aboard will be willing to do whatever it takes to stem the flow of incoming sea water. Some of the passengers will perhaps wish to argue over who or what is responsible for the hole in the hull. Some of the passengers may simply tell you it's hopeless and there will be those who are focused on the life boats. In your own mind you know that there are not nearly enough life boats and that finding a way to keep your ship afloat is the only logical course but you cannot get the majority involved. Worse yet some passengers will do their best to convince those involved in the effort to stop the incoming sea water that it is hopeless although they will not join in the effort themselves.

You do that work for 4 years and you may find that you no longer care if everyone goes down with the ship. Fix the hole, stop rampant pollutions from being introduced into the atmosphere and onto the ground we live on and breath........ No matter the issue there are always the naysayers, the devil's advocates. Wear a mask to protect yourself and those around you or argue against the masks as an infringement on your freedom, I can't change anything. I can't end world wide threats or hate and I sure as hell can't cure stupidity.

There is one thing I found that I can do. I can and have focused on reducing my own footprint. Be it carbon emissions, sulfur dioxide or plastic waste I have tried not to knowingly be a part of the problem. Am I part of the solution? I do my best, I tried to be something more than one man, one voice and found that I became depressed literally affected by the effort so I quit and decided to live my life as best I could. That's all any of us can do, try your best. I'll die knowing I tried to change some minds and failed but my own mind and actions have been as positive as I could manage.
 

trev

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Reducing our own contribution is a commendable goal.
Most anglers contribute bits of line or tippet regularly, many flies and lures are made of plastics and we "lose'' them often enough when we break off a log or an active fish. Every body is disgusted by the photos of large plastic in the streams, but all the bits of tippet, Fishair, foam and mylar are accumulating as well. Do we send our old waders in for recycling? do we pay any attention to disposal of old clothing made of synthetic fibers? do we choose natural fabrics whenever possible? does it make a difference that nylon breaks down under UV faster than fluorocarbon?
It's not often clear where the balance is either because some "green" things have hidden environmental costs. How much fossil fuel is used to grow, harvest, transport, and distill, and distribute the corn that goes in my gasoline to reduce my fossil fuel use? do wind powered electric generators really kill millions of migrating birds?
Ever wonder if dinosaurs talked about their impending extinction?
 

JDR

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Personal responsibility is always a key part of any solution. When you take personal responsibility for the problem (or solution) you own it. It becomes part of what moves you from one day to the next. (maybe not in a singular manner, but it is always somewhere on your radar)
For solutions, I think it is obvious that it is time for a new generation of ideas and leaders to take precedence. The baby boomers have done as much damage as this earth can withstand... maybe more.
 

weiliwen

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and they are laughing on the audio...
our species is doomed...
be fruitful and multiply
It reminds me of when I was working as a pollution prevention manager at Nike in Indonesia. When I told a shopkeeper who'd asked what I did, he laughed, pointed at the polluted canal next to his store and said, "You're too late!"
 

okaloosa

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It reminds me of when I was working as a pollution prevention manager at Nike in Indonesia. When I told a shopkeeper who'd asked what I did, he laughed, pointed at the polluted canal next to his store and said, "You're too late!"
and I would bet their population will double before they get the pollution control standards we have, and even then it wont be enough. would you eat any food products sold in USA marked made in Indonesia like canned fish, shellfish, etc? I bet not
did you do any fishing there?
 

bumble54

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Easy to critisise others but looking around my home last night and adding up where everything comes from and how it is made, I must responsible for the destruction of a small forest, responsible for more than a couple of quarries, the death of a small herd of cattle and consumed an entire years oil well production, and responsible for an untold amount of CO2 in the atmosphere, and that's just me.
 

trev

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would you eat any food products sold in USA marked made in Indonesia like canned fish, shellfish, etc? I bet not
Many imported foods just say "Distributed by X company", I'm always looking at packaging to see where the foods come from. Crops grown in South America may use pesticides that are banned here and fish or meat or whatever canned in Asia isn't going to be looked at by USDA inspectors. Surprising how much food we get from Vietnam, fish caught in the north Atlantic or in US waters and transported there for processing.
 

Flyfisher for men

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"be fruitful and multiply" is what will do us in as a species. That in and of itself would not be a problem, but we have mostly stopped killing each other and we keep saving the lives of people that might die.
One could conclude, then, that we would be better off if we were killing each other and letting people die. It sounds as if not killing each other and saving lives is a bad thing. I assume that it isn't your intention to encourage that sort of thinking, but that conclusion could be drawn from the statement.

Assume, though, that some did draw that conclusion and advocate it (and some people have). There are a number of issues and objections:

The first thing that comes to mind is the Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." That precept applies to all of us. It's universal, and it's knowable by anyone with a functional rationality.

A second principal is that, at heart of it all, life and human existence is good. But here, there is a suggestion that people are inherently bad, a problem, maybe even vermin.

A third problem pops up in that it leads to an arbitrariness about life. Work it all out to it's logical extreme and you can get into the realm of choosing who ought to live and who ought to die.

We sometimes call it "playing God," but, for sake of argument, I'll leave god out of it. Imagine no god at all. I'd have to ask which one of us gets to make the decision? Should it be me, you, or someone else? And how exactly does a person acquire that right and authority? If it didn't come from God, then how can such a power originate in a person at all? What gives one human the power of life and death over another when we're all supposed to be equal and if were insisting there is no higher authority who could grant such a power?

A fourth idea is the notion of Providence. Could it be that there is some sort of power at work that has made it possible for al of those humans to live and do so far better than before? When Thomas Malthus first made his doomsday prediction about human population, the world population was far, far smaller than today and people were living half as good at best. And yet, somehow we've managed to increase beyond anything he ever imagined. Could it be that there has been some loving, benevolent power at work that made it possible to care for all those additional people?

A Christian like myself says, "Absolutely Yes." But if you don't share that faith, there's still something very striking in how human beings have managed to develop the ability to provide for themselves. It may well come from a benevolent power at work, but at the very least it points to human ingenuity.

And that leads to another point. Why not live in the spirit that says human beings have within themselves the possibility of doing great things together? Human beings put a man on the moon and made it possible to live in an environment that could not have sustained human life. Maybe that's the mentality to take here. Make things sustainable and liveable by banding together in uniting as one. Come together to clean up a river of trash in Ghana.

Now, about religion. There's an interesting convergence happening right now. The solutions to the problems of our planet must obviously be international, global, and universal. They require ideas and unity that likewise know no boundaries. That's the sort of spirit that religion provides, especially Christianity. This is huge theme for Pope Francis (familiarize yourself with his recent encyclical on the environment Laudato Si). Francis's genius is that he sees what must be done for the planet is precisely what Christianity is--people coming together as one in truth. That is what the church is. It's a unity of people bound up together in a relationship of love that upholds the life and value of every individual.

At least Francis has lived what he is talking about. He comes from a country that got exploited by dirty capitalism, and for that matter, political oppression that, in truth, is the very same arbitrary coercion and murderousness that I discussed above. It leads to people saying that there are others who are not as equal or as valuable, that they can be regarded as undesirable or not worthy or respect. They might even be called disposable, to be terminated at will.

We can do a lot better. The key to it is to go in the opposite direction, by reason at least, and maybe by faith, too.
 

weiliwen

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and I would bet their population will double before they get the pollution control standards we have, and even then it wont be enough. would you eat any food products sold in USA marked made in Indonesia like canned fish, shellfish, etc? I bet not. Did you do any fishing there?
Nor from China. I lived there, too.

Nope, I never did go fishing, although the local (Jakarta) canals were full of fish. No way would I ever have eaten them, though. Some guys did a bit of offshore fishing. The best fishing is on the south side of the island, but there are hardly any harbors or villages there - all the population is on the north side of the island.
 

trev

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One could conclude
yep, one can always conclude.
One could conclude that since the next life is wonderful, saving a life is detrimental to that souls advancement.
An unbiased observer could conclude that since Christians will be exalted to the Presence of the Creator at death, that they should be anxious to accept death, even seek it, they should rejoice when a loved one dies.
One could conclude that saving a life is playing God just as much as taking a life.
In conclusion, I observed that over population of the planet has two primary causes; first- reproduction, second- extended life expectancy, but that the world had survived eons of reproduction with out harm until life expectancy was extended for all. I hinted at reduction of warfare and growth of medicine, but other factors do play a part in the over all longevity. An increased longevity also means more adults to reproduce over a longer time, so it becomes a greater problem with each life saved, because that enables more reproduction, and that in turn leads to more reproduction and that over the last couple of centuries has led to overpopulation.
Another observation could be that in nature when overpopulation of a species occurs it is often followed by a population crash, usually through disease. But we have medicines other animals don't have, which begs the question; what will eventually limit and reduce our population?
To go there would become political so let us continue to bash Africans and Asians for their trash disposal methods and sometimes talk about fishing in streams of plastic or using plastic to fish in streams. Our next sermon could be on John 8:7.
 

Flyfisher for men

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In conclusion, I observed that over population of the planet...
This is precisely where things can all start to go wrong: the assertion that our planet is overpopulated. Assume that it is, then why not just say someone shouldn't be here? Then, if so, that they have no right to be here, and from that notion conclude that they ought be eliminated?

History is on my side on this one. We've actually had people do this on both the left and the right. This is the kind of thinking that led to the numerous slaughter-fests of the 20th century.

I don't want to ignore that religion can certainly be utilized for murderous purposes, but the twentieth century's mass killings were generally by secularist or atheistic regimes e.g. nazism and communism. They had one thing in common: an ideology that made the decision about the right to life purely arbitrary, whether it was decided by a dictator or an oligarchy. Both ideologies each lacked a principle that Thomas Jefferson nailed: Human beings are endowed by their creator with rights.

This can be linked to something like George Floyd's death, that he died because of human arbitrariness, and the arbitrary denial of his rights by a person with using coercive power. His life didn't matter, his rights didn't matter, and the officer falsely appropriated to himself the power and authority to put his life at risk when he was no threat.

An unbiased observer could conclude that since Christians will be exalted to the Presence of the Creator at death, that they should be anxious to accept death, even seek it, they should rejoice when a loved one dies.
There's some truth here, though it's complicated. I'll explain if you wish, but I would lime to have sone specific questions to give it direction.

what will eventually limit and reduce our population?
That can be done. I'll explain if you wish.

You have certainly hit something undeniable: we're stressing the planet, and we simply can't do that at will. That's why I direct you to Pope Francis because he's thinking the same things you are. He's also rightly saying to believers like me that to be Christian is to work and address these things. In particular, he critiques capitalism for its destructiveness, particularly in third world places like Ghana.

Maybe it's time to reevaluate, though, whether we're overpopulated. People claim that, but is it really true? I once thought that, then I studied it in depth and discovered there's a lot of reasons to think differently. It certainly is the case that we're not overpopulated if each of us is willed to exist by God and given rights that we might live for the days he allots.

This is the the thing about our growing population: it provides the brains that find the solutions. Have you considered that among the one billion people in 1800 were the people who made it possible for 1.5 billion people to live in 1900, and so on till the 7.5 billion plus today? In the next billion may be the person who figures out cold fusion, the person who figures out a simple way to cool the planet, and the person who figures out how to triple the world's food supply.

In the end, this is about hope. It's amazing that so few people think it's possible to get it done. True, we've had epic disasters like the world wars, but we've also repeatedly done something that no one would have dreamed of in 1800. Even If we don't believe in Providence, or we don't have faith in a gracious God, at the very least there's the human spirit that says we're al welcome and we can find a way for all of us to live better together.

Edit: "Be fruitful and multiply" has made it possible for so many of us to live. 7.5 billion people live because so many used their minds and lives to make it possible for more of us to have life.
 
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dynaflow

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Capitalism has much to answer for and America is the home of it....as in a general Consume or Perish mentality,and I don't apologise for that remark.Then you have China feeding that insatiable appetite for western consumerism,one of the consequences of which is the endless production of plastic that is choking our seas.I remember the Hippie mantra... "Live simply so that others might simply live".
P.S.please desist from a Christian perspective to save us,it's simply not going to happen.
 

trev

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a principle that Thomas Jefferson nailed: Human beings are endowed by their creator with rights.
Tom cut and pasted most of his ideas from Locke, great politician Tom was. Did you know he wrote a Bible the same way?
It certainly is the case that we're not overpopulated if each of us is willed to exist by God and given rights that we might live for the days he allots.
But, we aren't allowing folks to die at the allotted time are we?
Capitalism has much to answer for and America is the home of it.
Greed is one of those laws of nature that allow a species to survive. Capitalism is as old as civilization and is rooted in natural greed. America is simply the result Europe finding a place to expand, again natural greed was the motivator.
 

Flyfisher for men

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P.S.please desist from a Christian perspective to save us,it's simply not going to happen.
I'm assuming you direct this to me. Be assured my purpose is not to save anyone here. I'm saying this to protect and perhaps save the lives of others who might be victims of what has been called the "culture of death." Assertions of overpopulation have several times led us to depopulate. There was horrific bloodshed.

If what I say leads someone to salvation, then I'll be joyous, but that's not my intention here. I really haven't given much of a Christian perspective anyway. Nothing I've said is actually religious. My thoughts are rooted in philosophy (particularly natural law) and historical observation. I've made a few religious allusions for sure, but I'm specifically avoiding arguing from revelation since many here are not believers.

What I'm saying is knowable and discernible by human reason. It's philosophy, not religion. Much of what I say could be called precursors or preambles of religious faith, but they're not religion.

Tom cut and pasted most of his ideas from Locke, great politician Tom was. Did you know he wrote a Bible the same way?
Yes, I'm well aware of that. I've had students compare Locke and Jefferson side by side so they can see the similarities. Interestingly, I was asked about this very thing today. A few of my associates were discussing the similarities between Locke and Jefferson and asked me about it. I'm the resident historian here and teach U.S. history, and that was an easy one.

I'm also long familiar with Jefferson's Bible. My question to Jefferson would be this: Do you have any sound reason to presume against the miraculous? His presumption is yes from the get-go, but it's really nothing more than an unsubstantiated bias. (I encountered this critique through a book by a Boston College philosophy professor named Peter Kreeft. It may be on his website).

The strange thing about Thomas Jefferson is that he was actually quite friendly to religion for most of his life. He was an Anglican vestrymen and attended services every week. He also was great admired by the Baptists because he defended their freedom. They were actually pleased with his election as president. Jefferson certainly writes some disparaging remarks about religion, but that comes late in his life. A good book that discusses this: God of Liberty by Thomas Kidd. He's a history professor at Baylor.


On a completely different note: I see you're located south of Joplin. That means you're very close or even in a coronavirus hotspot if I read things correctly. Be careful and stay healthy.
 
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