Uplocking vs downlocking

Hayden Creek

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How much does using a downlocking reel seat affect rod to reel balance vs an uplocking?
I know it does but wondering if any of the forum gurus out there have a fairly definitive answer. How much does it change the effective weight of the reel?
 

okaloosa

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It changes the swing weight a lot especially noticable when high sticking. No wonder the best american euro rods are down locking. Across the pond they like semi auto reels and the uplocking reel seat offers better access to the lever but their swing weight suffers. Notice how many boo rod reel seats are downlocking which i imagine is to offset heavier blanks. 10 foot euro rods balance with 1 oz lighter reels if downlocking
 

Ard

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I prefer down lockers over up and remember feeling disappointed when someone determined that 95% of single hand roods would have up lock seats. All of my early rods were downers pun intended then by the mid 80's things began to shift.

I believe to figure this question out you would have to find a forum member with very acute math skills. If I wanted to risk injury to my brain I would construct a word problem using all known factors with X being the effect on fulcrum point change. The actual weight will not change but the fulcrum point will be moved forward.

Without the math; if you have a rod reel combo that balances at a point forward on the cork at 'A' and you then change the position of the reel / line to a point essentially 1 or 2 inches forward the fulcrum point must move forward as well. ........... Whether this change will be enough to be noticed by a user will need to be determined by use. I think that by using a down locking reel seat which puts the weight of the reel at the terminal point at the back of a fly rod allows for a lighter reel to be used in order to achieve that highly treasured balance point near the tip of cork / winding check area.
 

Hayden Creek

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It changes the swing weight a lot especially noticable when high sticking. No wonder the best american euro rods are down locking. Across the pond the like semi auto reels and the uplocking reel seat offers better access to the lever but their swing weight suffers. Notice how many boo rod reel seats are downlocking which i imagine is too offset heavier blanks. 10 foot euro rods balance with 1 oz lighter reels if downlocking
All my bamboo have downlockers.
 

Hayden Creek

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I prefer down lockers over up and remember feeling disappointed when someone determined that 95% of single hand roods would have up lock seats. All of my early rods were downers pun intended then by the mid 80's things began to shift.

I believe to figure this question out you would have to find a forum member with very acute math skills. If I wanted to risk injury to my brain I would construct a word problem using all known factors with X being the effect on fulcrum point change. The actual weight will not change but the fulcrum point will be moved forward.

Without the math; if you have a rod reel combo that balances at a point forward on the cork at 'A' and you then change the position of the reel / line to a point essentially 1 or 2 inches forward the fulcrum point must move forward as well. ........... Whether this change will be enough to be noticed by a user will need to be determined by use. I think that by using a down locking reel seat which puts the weight of the reel at the terminal point at the back of a fly rod allows for a lighter reel to be used in order to achieve that highly treasured balance point near the tip of cork / winding check area.
This is one reason I ask. My math skills are not that good.
The main reason I ask aside from curiosity is that knowing how much may help those looking at reels to determine how it will pair with rod choice. I'm sure there are multiple variables but thought someone out there may know of a workable average.
Your average seat on your average trout rod would change the center point of the reel either back or forward the same amount of distance. Or maybe that is over simplifying it.
I'm stuck at home waiting for a garage door repair. Thing blew apart this morning. Shame as it is a perfect day to fish Bikini Row.
 
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Bonesonthebrain

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Good responses above. One other thing to consider other than balance, rods for larger fish with fighting butts typically fair better with up locking seats to get the reel away from your belly that might, or might not, have some non intended cushioning that could interfere with reeling.
 

okaloosa

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This is one reason I ask. My math skills are not that good.
The main reason I ask aside from curiosity is that knowing how much may help those looking at reels to determine how it will pair with rod choice. I'm sure there are multiple variables but thought someone out there may know of a workable average.
There is no set formula because some rods are more tip heavy than others which would throw off the calculations. But it is undeniable that downlocking reelseats allow use of lighter reels and therefore can shave 10% or more off the total weight of rod and reel. Echo has done something a bit "sneaky" or clever by elongating the cork handle on their already super light Shadow X rod which allows you to place your hand aft an inch or two which makes the rod feel lighter or even allowing you to use a lighter reel if you dont mind losing an inch or two in reach.
 

Hayden Creek

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Good responses above. One other thing to consider other than balance, rods for larger fish with fighting butts typically fair better with up locking seats to get the reel away from your belly that might, or might not, have some non intended cushioning that could interfere with reeling.
Good point. And I know a few, at least one (s&s) prefers uplockers on everything.
 

silver creek

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I prefer uplocking seats for the reason that I can lean the rod against the car or a tree and the rod is more likely to rest on the rod butt rather than the reel.
 

sweetandsalt

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I'm not math genius either and so my balancing acts are by trial and error (using existing reels in my possession). With the advent of larger arbor reels, more rod makes went with up locking seats to preclude the rim of the reel from extending past the butt cap to protect the reel form damage and inhaling sandy grit when leaned against a tree...+ bonesonthebrian's correct observation.
 

Hayden Creek

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I prefer uplocking seats for the reason that I can lean the rod against the car or a tree and the rod is more likely to rest on the rod butt rather than the reel.
True. I don't really have a preference. But I definitely get away with using lighter reels with my bamboo by having downlockers. I have even had people tell me I couldn't get away with using a certain reel on a certain rod and achieve neutral balance. Then they pick the rod up and lo and behold.
 

okaloosa

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I'm not math genius either and so my balancing acts are by trial and error (using existing reels in my possession). With the advent of larger arbor reels, more rod makes went with up locking seats to preclude the rim of the reel from extending past the butt cap to protect the reel form damage and inhaling sandy grit when leaned against a tree...+ bonesonthebrian's correct observation.
I agree with all you say but 10 ft plus rods are a whole different breed and the extra length really alters swing weight negatively and the easiest way to ameliorate that is with a downlocking seat which is why they are now standard on T&T Contact II rods when they were only optional on the prior series.
 
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MichaelCPA

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As most two hand rods, also down locking. One you are past 10 feet of length, most struggle to find a heavy reel in the days of ultra lite ported everything.

My best buy heavy full frame reel: Pfleuger Medalist.
 

okaloosa

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This is a complete myth in the UK most anglers have never seen a semi auto reel let alone used one.
I will take your word for it. I based what I read, and perhaps misinterpreted, in a review here:
also, my understanding that the Czech team and others were using them in competition.
by "they" I was referring to competitive euro nymphers, not your typical fly fisherman.
 
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el jefe

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I prefer down lockers over up and remember feeling disappointed when someone determined that 95% of single hand roods would have up lock seats. All of my early rods were downers pun intended then by the mid 80's things began to shift.

I believe to figure this question out you would have to find a forum member with very acute math skills. If I wanted to risk injury to my brain I would construct a word problem using all known factors with X being the effect on fulcrum point change. The actual weight will not change but the fulcrum point will be moved forward.

Without the math; if you have a rod reel combo that balances at a point forward on the cork at 'A' and you then change the position of the reel / line to a point essentially 1 or 2 inches forward the fulcrum point must move forward as well. ........... Whether this change will be enough to be noticed by a user will need to be determined by use. I think that by using a down locking reel seat which puts the weight of the reel at the terminal point at the back of a fly rod allows for a lighter reel to be used in order to achieve that highly treasured balance point near the tip of cork / winding check area.
I found a video that goes over the required math skills, in word problem form, the kind of math that perplexed me so much in grade school.

Math Word Problem Template
 
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