which type of line casts further

gooner

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Finally with what type of saltwater line you can cast further? with a true to weight 40 foot line or with a short intergraded 30foot head line with all the grains on the front?
 

osseous

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The longest false cast will lead to the longest total cast. So- If you can aerialize the longer head with control, that's gonna give a longer delivery.

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silver creek

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I would say a shooting head since this is what is used in distance casting competitions as well as casting in salt water fr distance.




 
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silver creek

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Really? I' m no expert but I thought long belly lines like the SA MED or the Barrio GT are used in distance casting competitions.
If you are referring to standard competitions like a 5 wt distance, then the competitors MUST use a standard line.

But for distance competitions like the ACA where they cast about 250 feet, they use shooting heads.


"In Angler's Fly the rod is limited to a maximum of 9'1" in length. A shooting head system is employed with a maximum of 310 grains. This equates to an 8wt rod loaded with a shooting head - roughly the same gear used for fishing wipers on the Ohio River. Steve Rajeff and Rene Gillibert hold the record at 190 feet. This year Rajeff took top honors with a cast of 171-feet, followed closely by Henry Mittel at 164-feet. Richard Siciliano captured the senior men's category with a 141-foot toss and Pam Peters boomed a 126-footer for the women's category. These are mind-boggling casts!

The two-handed salmon fly distance event featured casts that are almost surreal. Using a highly specialized rod that is not designed for fishing, with a length limit of 17-feet, the participants can use a shooting head of nearly 2000 grains - about the equivalent of four 12wt lines combined! Even with such esoteric gear it must be quite the show to see winning casts of 284 feet!"


Steve Rajeff answers questions about the best line for distance competition with single handed rods here:


"9 foot single hand rods work very well with around a 30 foot shooting head and a weight of two line sizes heavier than the rod is rated. If you use a 10 foot rod, the shooting head that casts the nicest is a bit longer, and some would say around 35 feet. This length of head comes close to matching a casting stroke cycle time that feels good when casting the 10 foot rod."


"Record casts are done with special rods and lines, which adhere to the official rules for casting tournaments.

A one-hand set-up consists of a rod, which is shorter or equal to 9'9".

The AFTM class is optional, but somewhere between 10 and 13 is common.
The shooting head length is limited to 49'3" or just above 15 meters, and it must weigh less than 650 grains or some 42 grams.
The leader must be more than 6 and less than 12' or some 2-3.5 m."
 
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osseous

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I fished a lot of shooting heads for Stripers when I lived in New England. They're not for the meek- particularly with a 6/0 lead eyed Deceiver hanging off the end. The cast is very specialized, and handling the running line can be a challenge compared to fly line. A little water in your stripping basket to keep things slippery- and you can boom out casts over 100' without a false cast.

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bigjim5589

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I've never used a shooting head, but have used various specialty lines, and for the fishing I do, don't see much difference as far as distance. Like osseous mentioned, it's very much going to make a difference what fly you're using and the conditions. For example, I have a Tarpon taper line for my 10 wt, that I can cast further than other lines I have, but rarely have to do that. I bought it because I do use some large and/or heavy flies and most of the weight in the line is up front.

The majority of saltwater fishing I ever did was inshore, in fairly close quarters where a 50' cast was long, or from a boat, and again, a 50' cast was a long one. On a shallow flat, such as chasing Tarpon or Bonefish, where a 70' or longer cast might be more common, then a specific line might be what you want. I've never done that type of saltwater fishing, so never needed to be casting any extreme distances. So, you should still choose your lines to fit the type of fishing.
 

ddb

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And using salt water shooting heads with running lines is really effective when using sinking heads ranging from intermediate to fast sink. These sinking head systems do the best job of minimizing the effects of wave action in putting slack between you and your flies and presenting flies deeper.
 

silver creek

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Since sinking lines are thinner than floating lines, I would think the sinking shooting heads would also go farther than the floaters. Is that your experience ddb?
 

flafly14

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Finally with what type of saltwater line you can cast further? with a true to weight 40 foot line or with a short intergraded 30foot head line with all the grains on the front?
I don't know about these competition guys. But I can tell you that I personally can cast the longer headed lines further. I've never really messed with the shooting heads much. I suspect there might be a little different technique required to make proper use of them.

I watched a video of one guy casting them just now. First thing I noticed was his trajectory. If you carry a lot of line you can't really send your backcast real low because it'll hit the ground/water behind you. But these guys casting these short shooting heads (I'm guessing) were really angling their backcasts low so they could send the forward cast high. Makes sense I guess.
 

osseous

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The original question was:



The answer is the second option which is the integrated shooting head.
Disagree- the longest CONTROLLED false cast will generate the most distance. The short, heavy head will become unruly with longer false casts. If the question were "which one will provide the most distance with the least effort, I'd be on board with the 30 footer.

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osseous

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I don't know about these competition guys. But I can tell you that I personally can cast the longer headed lines further. I've never really messed with the shooting heads much. I suspect there might be a little different technique required to make proper use of them.

I watched a video of one guy casting them just now. First thing I noticed was his trajectory. If you carry a lot of line you can't really send your backcast real low because it'll hit the ground/water behind you. But these guys casting these short shooting heads (I'm guessing) were really angling their backcasts low so they could send the forward cast high. Makes sense I guess.
Exactly- lowest backcast possible, and an up-angling forward cast to allow for full extension and turnover. Set-up with a large or weighted fly is to roll the head onto the water, and immediately perform a backcast where you shoot some line. Catch that moving line with your line hand and perform a hauled forward delivery. Arrow shaped of possible. Goes like hell.

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flafly14

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OK. It just so happens that I own a rio outbound short line. I've never fished it. I had never even cast it. So this thread prompted me to take it out just now. I had some problems that I didn't anticipate. The problem with the the Outbound was that I was getting terrible, terrible turnover. Like the worst turnover ever. It was consistent. But as I was casting I was really trying to see what was happening, and I think that it wasn't a bad turnover problem like I'm used to thinking of where it's typically due to a lack of energy being transmitted down toward the leader. I think this was the opposite. I think the top leg of the cast was outrunning the bottom leg prematurely while there was still a lot of forward energy. So the line was completely unrolling while still midflight, and then the running line was dragged out behind the mess.

If I had to put money on it, then I'd bet it was a timing issue with my forward stroke/haul. But I couldn't figure it out. Any of you casting wizards know the answer to this riddle? Is haul timing more critical with a shooting head?
 

osseous

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Blind fishing salt water in wind which would be most useful? a long controlled false cast or a longer rocket launched shooting head cast?
Blind casting is where a shooting head shines-

And Flafly, managing the overhang out the rod tip is critical. Too much and control goes all to hell. Too little and you won't maximize load. Get that dialed and turnover will get better. The short head and short taper are still gonna give a somewhat inconsistent delivery. You've seen S&S talk about the benefits of a long rear taper? That's a big one- presentation.

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boisker

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OK. It just so happens that I own a rio outbound short line. I've never fished it. I had never even cast it. So this thread prompted me to take it out just now. I had some problems that I didn't anticipate. The problem with the the Outbound was that I was getting terrible, terrible turnover. Like the worst turnover ever. It was consistent. But as I was casting I was really trying to see what was happening, and I think that it wasn't a bad turnover problem like I'm used to thinking of where it's typically due to a lack of energy being transmitted down toward the leader. I think this was the opposite. I think the top leg of the cast was outrunning the bottom leg prematurely while there was still a lot of forward energy. So the line was completely unrolling while still midflight, and then the running line was dragged out behind the mess.

If I had to put money on it, then I'd bet it was a timing issue with my forward stroke/haul. But I couldn't figure it out. Any of you casting wizards know the answer to this riddle? Is haul timing more critical with a shooting head?
interstingly there is a thread running on the U.K. forum about lines, in which a post by James partly answers your question with regards why it is fully ‘unrolling’ in the air.
“..........
I think some explanation of how fly lines 'roll out' is needed here. Now this is a contentious issue and there's an awful lot of bollox written by people who think they understand it (and the underlying physics) but actually they're just in the business of flogging tackle.

'Energy transfer' is one of the terms that just leads to confusion. I think most people with some common sense will agree that the (kinetic) energy of the line is at a maximum immediately after the fly caster's input is finished i.e. once the line starts overtaking the rod tip. From this point forward the only thing that happens is kinetic energy loss, ending ultimately with the line laying out possessing zero KE. So the key thing is how this KE loss occurs - and how the fly line taper affects it.

I don't want to turn this into a physics discussion, I think that's best left for Sexyloops, but if someone wants some additional reading they should look up the conservation of energy laws, particularly the conservation of angular momentum.

What angular momentum considerations will tell you is that a spey type taper (triangular) will turn-over quite 'aggressively'. This is great especially for roll casts etc. where you want to lift the anchor out of the water and deliver it to the target. The reason I don't like them for overhead (distance) casting is because this 'aggressive' turnover results in the cast straightening too early, and once the line is straight the forward shoot is compromised.

For distance casting therefore, I want to slow down the turnover in order to maximise the flight time. This relies on the opposite angular momentum effect, i.e. if the line is going from thin to thick as it rotates around the loop it will slow down. This is exactly why distance casters want to cast with overhang behind their WF heads - this means there's a transition from thin running line to the thicker head. This means the turnover of the head itself is slowed and (hopefully) the line straightens just before it touches down. Getting this overhang correct is a skill that all good distance caster master.

Going back to the GT90 line in the example above, if you really wanted this line to cast far you'd aerialise it right to the end of the rear taper, i.e. carrying 70ft plus of line. Very, very few caster possess the skill required to do this though.....”


the rest of the thread can be followed here....
 

flafly14

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Ok...that's more helpful than anything I could have reasonably asked for. Thanks to both of you! I can't wait to do a little casting practice tomorrow! I'll let you know how it goes.
 
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