Hot Creek, CA - Restoration - It's going to take awhile...

darkshadow

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What I'm confused about is this statistic:

"A 2007 survey by the California Department of Fish and Wildlife counted 12,000 fish per mile — one of the highest densities of wild trout in California. A follow-up in 2016 indicated the number had plummeted by a staggering 92 percent."

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So, are they stocking and finding out the reason WHY this has plummeted? Being a catch and release only stream, angler pressure is probably not a reason why?

It almost seems like they are now just stocking the creek every year and calling it a day. I really hope the bulk of the study is finding out why they are no longer spawning naturally, and why the population has plummeted that amount.
 

silver creek

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Judging from the article that PT posted, this is my opinion. I may be wrong but from what I read, the fact that 2 age classes of fish are missing means to me that the fish spawned but the eggs did not hatch.

”Concerns swirled, however, that prolonged drought and changing conditions might force Hot Creek into a sad curtain call.”

Trout eggs require upwelling spring water to keep sediment from suffocating the eggs and to keep the eggs at the right temperature especially in a stream with hot water inflows. In Wisconsin have had year class failures back in the 1980s and also more recently due to drought.

“We were missing two full age classes of fish,” said James Erdman, a Fish and Wildlife biologist. “There definitely were no signs of successful spawning across two years. It might take a decade to come back and recover from that.

I personally doubt that it will take a decade to recover from a 2 year class loss as long as no more year classes are lost. That is really the concern. I personally have lived through a loss of several year classes and it did not take 10 years to recover. That is hyperbole in my opinion, and is a self serving attempt to set up the need to stock the stream.

Drought dries up the springs and also lowers the water table so stream flows decrease both from the lack of springs, snow melt and direct rain. I suspect that the prolonged drought in California is the reason for lost year classes. That would be my guess. Once precipitation returns to normal, the fish population will also.

The question is then what to do until that occurs. During the 1980's drought, our DNR closed the trout season in our county and then the following year opened it for catch and release fishing only on all waters. That is an option that was not discussed in the article about Hot Creek. The alternative is stocking but that will dilute the genetics of the native fish as I discussed in another thread (see below).

What is important to me more than the fishing is the health of the fishery. Personally for me, I would rather close a fishery and let it it recover with all native trout than to add stockers. Apparently California fisheries didn’t have the ba**s to do that like the Wisconisin DNR did during our prolonged drought. The downside for the fishermen is that they lost the genetics of Hot Creek. They diluted the genetics of the native fish by 400%, meaning that the gene pools of fish in the stream are now only 20% native .

”When a group of 25 people surveyed the stream last September, 80 percent of the trout were identified as “planters.”

Our DNR chose to close the seasons and when fishing returns, there were some huge fish that have not been fished over for a while. The year of C&R after the closed season was one of the best for large trout in our local streams and rivers.

To me this is the most ironic quote in the article, “In the Eastern Sierra, a lot of our waters don’t support wild trout,” he said. “So when you find one like the Upper Owens (River), Hot Creek and Rush Creek, we try to protect it.”

Is it only me that noted that they did not protect the effin' wild native trout population at all. They replaced them with planters who will survive but they are not the native trout whose genetic line has now been mongrelized. They are no longer a pure strain. They are whatever strain the hatchery was raising.

Read the post I made here to understand what happens to a native population when hatchery trout are planted.

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/...estionnaire-trout-management.html#post1140444
 

dharkin

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What ever happened to protecting a resource? I will never understand why states stock a river that has an established native trout population. Stocking only serves the greed of the fishing public and doesn't benefit the river IMO. You want a place to stock fish for people to catch? Build a pond.
 

satyr

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Just for the record, there are no native trout in Hot Creek. In the 70s it was poisoned and brown trout were planted. In the 80s there was a large earthquake that silted up the springs that the hatchery at the top of the creek uses and to prevent the fry from suffocating 200,000 rainbows were released into the creek. This is back when all trout were diploids and those rainbows ended up being over 50% of the fish in the creek. During the drought DWP and Mammoth basically sucked Mammoth Creek dry and Hot Creek ended up with too little water to sustain the number of fish in it. Since there is never any 'taking' from this water there was never any reason to close the stream to the public. In fact the last couple years have seen very little pressure from fishermen because there were almost no fish left to catch. So the last two Octobers they have planted young trout to try to help the creek recover which it is doing pretty well.
 

creeker

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For DFG to stock non-sterile fish is a testament to how dire the populations have become in HC. The drought has been devastating to the system and it’s not seen a flush from runoff in several years.

In addition to the Hail Mary stocking efforts, I’d advocate for a habitat building effort to create long term opportunities for the trout to better survive periods of low flows. And, I would codify the existing ettitiquitte as a rule- No wading!
 

Bigfly

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Call someplace paradise and kiss it goodby..........
They needed a daily limit on fishers many years ago.........
Loved to death, and deprived of water......that'll do it.

Jim
 

acorad

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To me this is the most ironic quote in the article, “In the Eastern Sierra, a lot of our waters don’t support wild trout,” he said. “So when you find one like the Upper Owens (River), Hot Creek and Rush Creek, we try to protect it.”

Is it only me that noted that they did not protect the effin' wild native trout population at all. They replaced them with planters who will survive but they are not the native trout whose genetic line has now been mongrelized. They are no longer a pure strain. They are whatever strain the hatchery was raising.
fwiw, there are no native trout in the Eastern Sierra, including Hot Creek.

The southern and western drainages of the Sierra flow to the Pacific and thereby were (re)populated by steelhead after the last ice age, but the eastern drainage was/is blocked by a massive lava flow and all the water from the Eastern Sierra ended in the southern Owens Valley in a permanent lake with no access to the Pacific.

What I would take issue with is the idea that "In the Eastern Sierra, a lot of our waters don’t support wild trout." He must have been mis-quoted, because essentially ALL of the waters of the ES support trout. Some of the southern Owens River might get too hot in the summer for trout, but basically all of the other thousands of lakes, creeks, and streams are prime trout habitat.

Andy
 
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acorad

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...and, for those who are unfamiliar with Hot Creek, for as long as I can remember it has been zero limit and barbless only. It's present woes are not from over fishing.

Andy
 

darkshadow

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Just for the record, there are no native trout in Hot Creek.
There was a fly fishing 'convention' held at one of our local fly shops last year that talked about this, and there was a guy sitting up in front who was of the "I don't catch stocked trout, I only fish for natives" club, and it was hilarious seeing his face when the presenter mentioned that the fish in Hot Creek were stockers.

Again, if the issue is with the creek itself, throwing in supplemental stocks is similar to putting a band aid on a compound fracture and expecting it to heal.
 

mtbright

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Both hot creek and the owens need so work on management. there have many shanges i have seen over the 40 years that I have been fishing there. First off if i am there and i never se a fishh or catch a fish it is still a amazing day to be there.

Maybe shut down the fishing for a year to allow it recover. Or havve a set number of anglers. Hot creek is beautiful and an amazing location. Hot creek was world class, it still holds that reputation but it is a long way from that now a days.

MY goal is explore the places of my youth and make the back country trips out of convict, rock creek and such for multiple days. there is so much amazing water out of that valley that can be explored.
 

nevadanstig

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What I'm confused about is this statistic:

"A 2007 survey by the California Department of Fish and Wildlife counted 12,000 fish per mile — one of the highest densities of wild trout in California. A follow-up in 2016 indicated the number had plummeted by a staggering 92 percent."

*

So, are they stocking and finding out the reason WHY this has plummeted? Being a catch and release only stream, angler pressure is probably not a reason why?

It almost seems like they are now just stocking the creek every year and calling it a day. I really hope the bulk of the study is finding out why they are no longer spawning naturally, and why the population has plummeted that amount.
Drought, drought, drought.
When a stream goes down to a trickle every summer and water temps get over 70, plus no flushing flow to clean up the gravel beds for spawning, it takes a huge toll. We went through this for a solid 7+ years up here, and really weren't relieved till last year.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk
 

mtbright

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...and, for those who are unfamiliar with Hot Creek, for as long as I can remember it has been zero limit and barbless only. It's present woes are not from over fishing.

Andy
Where I agree that woes are not caused by over fishing but combine it with all the other issues it has affected the health of the river system.
 

satyr

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I remember when there were hundreds of head of cattle that roamed in and around Hot Creek. The nice thing about that was that they ate the nettles. Of course that is also the bad thing about the cattle. However, the fishing was just about as good then as it ever was so wading is not likely to cause Hot Creek any trouble. I do support the no wading rule though just based on the number of people that fish there. If everyone was wading they would put all the fish down. Instead, with no one wading, I can walk in right as someone else leaves a section and catch fish. Thank god most of the people that fish there aren't very good at it.

It will be interesting to see how the fish population holds up now that there is a decent flow again. Here's hoping next year is wetter than this one was!
 

Bigfly

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The no wading rule is about not wrecking the bug ecosystem, not about not putting fish down.....
The whole east side is about easy fish, so they can sell rooms and food and fishing gear, to folks who fish once a year, maybe twice. Most of these folks would prefer a drive-by fish....roll down the window and stick one. Which is why the Hot has been a favorite of Socal. Close and easy...
Most fishers have no idea what is lost or what is gained, when the "wild" fish go away.......they just want a fish.....wild, native, stocked...who cares? Alpers are big and dumb....perfect for the masses.
I gave up on the Hot back in the 80s.....even then I knew they were neither native or wild....with a hatchery on the head water....
Used to be just old guys in trucks.....(and a couple hippies;)) and the lot was mostly empty, weekdays.....it broke my heart....to see it go away.
A POX on golf courses.............root rot, mildew and cut worms.
Stop pumping water, and set it at 60 anglers per day and it would come back on its own....
I have yet to see a rehab that is close, let alone as good as the way it was.....don't mess it up from the beginning is the lesson.

Jim
 
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