Tribes calling For Columbia River dam removal
- Thread starter dillon
- Start date
At the time that most of these dams were built there was very little over site about the pros & cons of such projects. The public was sold a bill of goods about the benefits with not much said about what was to be lost. Bad science ruled the day with lame excuses of how the useless hatcheries would ensure the survival of the salmon & trout runs. Politicians had there pictures taken, that's all their good for as they made broken promises to the locals and native tribes. Most of these dams are economic failures with little value to the public . The science is overwhelming in favor for removal of the dams. Don't wait until i'ts too late.
sweetandsalt
Well-known member
Yes indeed, lets remove dams and limit indigenous peoples harvesting too. Fish genetically, it may already be too late.
ia_trouter
Senior Member
There is the issue of carbon free power, and a water source for humans and crops. It would restore some fish habitat, but I'll hazard a guess most all of these dam removals will be a fight.
I'd love to see the dams gone and the river flowing freely again, but I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime. There is a lot of potential for wind and solar in the area, and there are now some wind farms on the hills and in the wheat fields on both sides of the river, but I fear it'll a long hard fight to remove even one of those dams. I also fear the fishable salmon and steelhead runs in the Columbia drainage will soon be a thing of the past, even the runs below the lowest dam (Bonneville) are dwindling. I doubt removing the dams will help if we don't have improving ocean conditions and don't stop over harvesting.
If we can remove dams, I think we should. I think it'd be an incredible gift to future generations.
The fact these populations are dwindling is exactly why we should take removal seriously- it reduces barriers for fish moving up and down, it reduces the number of warmwater predators eating smolts, it vastly increases the amount of spawning habitat available.
Yes, there are other threats Pacific salmon face. All our salmon stocks face those threats. And even with poor ocean conditions, harvest, and predation, populations of winter-run steelhead have tripled since dam removal on the Elwha. Summer runs went from near zero to hundreds of returning individuals.
Compared with threats like ocean conditions and inter-jursidictional harvest, dams are one of the obstacles we have the most control over. If we know these populations are severely threatened, and we know dam removal does a lot to improve and stabilize those populations, then we should take every opportunity to remove dams seriously.
We shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, we shouldn't be willing to sacrifice the things we can control because of the things we can't.
The fact these populations are dwindling is exactly why we should take removal seriously- it reduces barriers for fish moving up and down, it reduces the number of warmwater predators eating smolts, it vastly increases the amount of spawning habitat available.
Yes, there are other threats Pacific salmon face. All our salmon stocks face those threats. And even with poor ocean conditions, harvest, and predation, populations of winter-run steelhead have tripled since dam removal on the Elwha. Summer runs went from near zero to hundreds of returning individuals.
Compared with threats like ocean conditions and inter-jursidictional harvest, dams are one of the obstacles we have the most control over. If we know these populations are severely threatened, and we know dam removal does a lot to improve and stabilize those populations, then we should take every opportunity to remove dams seriously.
We shouldn't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, we shouldn't be willing to sacrifice the things we can control because of the things we can't.
sweetandsalt
Well-known member
Even Pacific whales that feed on salmon are dying of starvation and not reproducing. Our Atlantic salmon stocks have long ago dwindled but at least don't suffer too much interbreeding with domesticated hatchery product. We all know the dams are not going to be removed and even if they were, its likely already too late. Our oceans are poisened, our upper atmosphere contaminated, the ice is melting, weather has gone wacko and every year is the warmest year on record. Our trouts are the canary in the coal mine. We had a "bomb cyclone" in the North East yesterday, it's still blowing a gale.
Dam removal is one of those hot button subjects. Will their removal simply bring back the plummeting salmon and steelhead numbers? It would help......but there are many more variables at play.
And yes, I don't live in Oregon, Washington or Idaho and I don't know all of the points to consider with flood control, power loss, jobs, transport, "clean energy", etc....but I can say this. Anyone that has ever seen these dams in person can say two things. Wow...that's big. And secondly..... how in the heck do the fish ever get past this and the other series of dams?
This is Bonneville Dam...... the first in a series that the fish must encounter.
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And yes, I don't live in Oregon, Washington or Idaho and I don't know all of the points to consider with flood control, power loss, jobs, transport, "clean energy", etc....but I can say this. Anyone that has ever seen these dams in person can say two things. Wow...that's big. And secondly..... how in the heck do the fish ever get past this and the other series of dams?
This is Bonneville Dam...... the first in a series that the fish must encounter.
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Bigfly
Well-known member
Flav and others who "fear" it may be too late.....it's not unless we give no effort to taking them down.
Farming in the desert is not smart from the start. Killing a run of fish that is 10,000 years old is beyond bad science, it's criminal, period.
Let's not bleat like sheep, let's kick some ass!
Jim
Farming in the desert is not smart from the start. Killing a run of fish that is 10,000 years old is beyond bad science, it's criminal, period.
Let's not bleat like sheep, let's kick some ass!
Jim
Feet on the ground
That's the type of hyped-up 'reporting' that makes me wonder what else they're hyping.
I live in NH. That weather system is over me right now. It's not a big deal. The winds are 40-50 MPH. We've had around an inch of rain. It's still windy and rainy.
But life goes on. I walk a lot. I just returned from a 3-mile walk. I put on my rain pants and jacket just like I'd wear if I was fishing in the rain. If I had planned on fishing today this wouldn't have stopped me.
School's in session.
The power went out here about 4:00 AM, but came back on at noon.
Northeast storms, as these are called, occur about 10-12 times a year. They're either snow or rain with wind depending on temperature.
The only exciting thing for me happened when the power went out. The reason it went out was a tree across the street fell on the power lines. It made an impressive pyrotechnic display about 75 feet from my bedroom window. Big orange/red fireball and lots of loud humming as a lot of current found its way to ground.
Other than that, not much unusual happening here.
I saw that "bomb cyclone" headline somewhere, CNN I think.
That's the type of hyped-up 'reporting' that makes me wonder what else they're hyping.
I live in NH. That weather system is over me right now. It's not a big deal. The winds are 40-50 MPH. We've had around an inch of rain. It's still windy and rainy.
But life goes on. I walk a lot. I just returned from a 3-mile walk. I put on my rain pants and jacket just like I'd wear if I was fishing in the rain. If I had planned on fishing today this wouldn't have stopped me.
School's in session.
The power went out here about 4:00 AM, but came back on at noon.
Northeast storms, as these are called, occur about 10-12 times a year. They're either snow or rain with wind depending on temperature.
The only exciting thing for me happened when the power went out. The reason it went out was a tree across the street fell on the power lines. It made an impressive pyrotechnic display about 75 feet from my bedroom window. Big orange/red fireball and lots of loud humming as a lot of current found its way to ground.
Other than that, not much unusual happening here.
sweetandsalt
Well-known member
Re: Feet on the ground
Bomb Cyclone is a meteorological term for two very low pressure systems integrating...I heard it used and explained on the CBS local news.
Bigfly, As an anger I am all but by definition an optimist. The science of climate change though, to the degree I can understand its complexity, along with my (our, anyone who has spent a lot of time outdoors for decades) own observations, has me profoundly concerned that it is already at the point of catastrophic alteration of wildlife, not to mention, human habitat. Almost a year ago, on January 1st 2019, I saw a Robin Redbreast in Greenwich Village, NYC. It was supposed to be in the Carolinas or someplace far more temperate. I doubt it was able to find many worms.
Bomb Cyclone is a meteorological term for two very low pressure systems integrating...I heard it used and explained on the CBS local news.
Bigfly, As an anger I am all but by definition an optimist. The science of climate change though, to the degree I can understand its complexity, along with my (our, anyone who has spent a lot of time outdoors for decades) own observations, has me profoundly concerned that it is already at the point of catastrophic alteration of wildlife, not to mention, human habitat. Almost a year ago, on January 1st 2019, I saw a Robin Redbreast in Greenwich Village, NYC. It was supposed to be in the Carolinas or someplace far more temperate. I doubt it was able to find many worms.
Lonnie Utah
Well-known member
Re: Feet on the ground
One thing never considered by the layperson in the dam removal discussions is the sediment that has been trapped behind the dam. It's often laiden with heavy metals and other toxins. Removing the dams resuspends the toxic sediments in the water column and transports it's further downstream.
One thing never considered by the layperson in the dam removal discussions is the sediment that has been trapped behind the dam. It's often laiden with heavy metals and other toxins. Removing the dams resuspends the toxic sediments in the water column and transports it's further downstream.
Re: Feet on the ground
It's easier to lose a population of 50 fish than a population of 50,000. Pacific salmon exhibit tremendous genetic diversity and adaptations to deal with environmental change. If these species are going to have any chance of persisting into the future, we're going to need to conserve as many of those populations and as much of that genetic diversity as we can. Because we don't know which populations or which genes will be most valuable twenty, thirty years down the road. Once they're gone, there's no going back. We've tied the hands of every biologist and every single angler who follows us.
Removing dams can increase reproduction and returns of adult, spawning fish. Removing dams allows more access between populations upstream and downstream, allows downstream populations to recolonize upstream reaches that had been isolated by the dam, and allows natural movement between river systems, all of which can increase populations and genetic diversity. If a reservoir behind a dam already holds loads of non-native, coolwater and warmwater predators...adding another couple degrees to water temperature exacerbates their predation of native fish. Rather than justifying or excusing the status quo, acknowledging we live in a changing world underscores the value of dam removal.
Pacific salmon are in a tough spot, facing many threats. We can eliminate some of those threats. There's nothing that says we MUST throw every conceivable obstacle to recovery in their way.
It's easier to lose a population of 50 fish than a population of 50,000. Pacific salmon exhibit tremendous genetic diversity and adaptations to deal with environmental change. If these species are going to have any chance of persisting into the future, we're going to need to conserve as many of those populations and as much of that genetic diversity as we can. Because we don't know which populations or which genes will be most valuable twenty, thirty years down the road. Once they're gone, there's no going back. We've tied the hands of every biologist and every single angler who follows us.
Removing dams can increase reproduction and returns of adult, spawning fish. Removing dams allows more access between populations upstream and downstream, allows downstream populations to recolonize upstream reaches that had been isolated by the dam, and allows natural movement between river systems, all of which can increase populations and genetic diversity. If a reservoir behind a dam already holds loads of non-native, coolwater and warmwater predators...adding another couple degrees to water temperature exacerbates their predation of native fish. Rather than justifying or excusing the status quo, acknowledging we live in a changing world underscores the value of dam removal.
Pacific salmon are in a tough spot, facing many threats. We can eliminate some of those threats. There's nothing that says we MUST throw every conceivable obstacle to recovery in their way.
And the world's been changing since day dot. It was changing in 1900, changing in 1950, yet folks still managed to keep these species on the landscape. Partly by luck, partly by accident, also through thoughtful, intentional protection.
It's always easier to do nothing than something, and everyone's always had that excuse. If prior generations had employed that justification, we wouldn't have the resources we enjoy today. Everyone gets to make the decision what they want to leave to their kids. If we decide to leave nothing, it says something important about us.
It's always easier to do nothing than something, and everyone's always had that excuse. If prior generations had employed that justification, we wouldn't have the resources we enjoy today. Everyone gets to make the decision what they want to leave to their kids. If we decide to leave nothing, it says something important about us.
dillon
Well-known member
Celilo Falls Columbia River | Celilo Falls history
It would be great to see Celilo Falls again with the removal of Bonneville and the Dalles dams. Of course removing dams is only part of the solution to restoring runs of wild Salmon and Steelhead. If you take the time to watch the video note the size of the Salmon historically captured at the falls. These fish have been devastated by tribal netting above Bonneville. They have been low holed by gill netters below the dam and the ultimate low hole in the Pacific. It is these fish that the Orcas need to sustain their diet.
YouTube
This is an interesting video of the lives three wild steelhead. The ability of one to survive in the cruel environment from the gravel to the sea and back is amazing. Note these fish taking refuge in the once cold flows of the Deschutes. Now this is even limited by warm water releases from dams on the Deschutes. Power to the Tribes!
It would be great to see Celilo Falls again with the removal of Bonneville and the Dalles dams. Of course removing dams is only part of the solution to restoring runs of wild Salmon and Steelhead. If you take the time to watch the video note the size of the Salmon historically captured at the falls. These fish have been devastated by tribal netting above Bonneville. They have been low holed by gill netters below the dam and the ultimate low hole in the Pacific. It is these fish that the Orcas need to sustain their diet.
YouTube
This is an interesting video of the lives three wild steelhead. The ability of one to survive in the cruel environment from the gravel to the sea and back is amazing. Note these fish taking refuge in the once cold flows of the Deschutes. Now this is even limited by warm water releases from dams on the Deschutes. Power to the Tribes!
ia_trouter
Senior Member
I'm not so sure prior generations decided to leave nothing, at least during my lifetime. Yes some regulations have been rolled back recently, but some believe there are now no environmental rules in place, and that just isn't so. The improvement in water quality where I live is remarkable during my lifetime. We have to continue guarding it for sure. Much work is left to be done.
scoutm
Well-known member
Such a complex problem. I hope we are able to solve it before it's too late. That is if its not already too late.
For me though it boils down to one thing...there are too many damn people living in areas that should not have been developed. Farming areas that shouldn't be farms. People got too damn good at altering places to their wants and needs without thinking about what's down stream.
People want clean cheap energy therefore the dams. People want to eat and drink so irrigation water is needed therefore dams. People want safe places to live that don't flood therefore the dams.
So as the population grows there will be more demand for things that dams provide. It's really hard for me to see a solution.
For me though it boils down to one thing...there are too many damn people living in areas that should not have been developed. Farming areas that shouldn't be farms. People got too damn good at altering places to their wants and needs without thinking about what's down stream.
People want clean cheap energy therefore the dams. People want to eat and drink so irrigation water is needed therefore dams. People want safe places to live that don't flood therefore the dams.
So as the population grows there will be more demand for things that dams provide. It's really hard for me to see a solution.
That was the point I was trying to make; I should've been more clear. Previous generations were willing to change the way we mine, the way we harvest timber, the way we look at water quality and environmental health, because they value these species and ecosystems. We either pick up that torch, or we snuff it out.
In my own neck of the woods, there's a Corps dam completed in 1948 at a cost of $167 million (adjusted for inflation). Sixty years later, the dam develops seepage through some sinkholes, and we spend $248 million in repairs. As big and complex as these structures are, they were never designed to be a permanent fixture on the landscape. They're infrastructure. Just like roads and bridges, they have a functional lifespan. They wear out. They need repaired or replaced. Just like canals, dams can become obsolete.
A dam built sixty years ago may not be serving the needs of today's population. We already see that with the Colorado River, it's partly the reason we saw such extensive flooding in the midwest this year. A dam designed to hold back spring runoff from snowpack doesn't work so well when there's no snow, or when snowfall is 150% of normal, or when four inches of rain falls on top of snow and ice, running straight into rivers. A dam built sixty years ago may not serve the needs of a populations 20 or 30 years down the road.
As this infrastructure ages, we're gonna have to have conversations about the purpose it serves. Except for the Monkey Wrench Gang types, serious conversations about dam removal typically revolve around those structures that no longer meet society's needs- they're not contributing substantially to the power grid, they're choked with sediment, they're structurally unsafe or repairs/modernization would be unjustifiably expensive. To me, that's a reasonable compromise.
knotjoe
Well-known member
Re: Feet on the ground
Mild days may have them visiting areas where they are common in summer, berry producing trees and winter stonefly hatches are popular dining events. They’re quieter in winter as well, one doesn’t hear the recognizable vocalizations as with summer. In any given Jan/Feb, my backyard can have Robins and YS Flickers devouring winter stoneflies all day, they’re easy, high protein pickings when crawling about on the white snow.
No catastrophic change on this issue, it’s simply you now noticing what has been there all along. Good for you, take more winter walks deeper into the forest and you’ll likely see many more interesting things.
Perfectly normal for Robins, contrary to popular folklore they don’t all migrate southward or to warmer climes in the winter. Many are year rounders in the colder states, Indiana is the same way. I see them all year, most winter sightings are in larger/older growth forests and creek proximities where food is more abundant relative typical neighborhoods.
Mild days may have them visiting areas where they are common in summer, berry producing trees and winter stonefly hatches are popular dining events. They’re quieter in winter as well, one doesn’t hear the recognizable vocalizations as with summer. In any given Jan/Feb, my backyard can have Robins and YS Flickers devouring winter stoneflies all day, they’re easy, high protein pickings when crawling about on the white snow.
No catastrophic change on this issue, it’s simply you now noticing what has been there all along. Good for you, take more winter walks deeper into the forest and you’ll likely see many more interesting things.
Bigfly
Well-known member
Re: Feet on the ground
Spent time on a farm, spent time in the city, and now I stand in a stream for a dose of reality....as opposed to what most consider reality.
I've come to know Judges, rocket scientists, animal trainers, body builders and beggars, prisoners, and VIPs. I've shot (photographed) the sheriff, and Vice president/President, photographed shootings....and accidents aplenty. The worlds horrors are numerous, and the fixes are few.
I remember when I could taste the air that burned my eyes, and lungs in SoCal in the 60s...Now the air is clean, but our administration wants older profit making ways, and low/no penalty regs.
This isn't political.....this is greedy and suicidal.
Since my dad negotiated for ballistic missiles when I was a kid, and I had a poster of a missile silo in first grade, I am very aware how close to the edge this house of cards we call life really is.
To repair the planet we would all have to pull together at the same time, in the same direction.
I can't see that coming........except for maybe a couple more generations....the kids voting in the next few elections will tell the tale. I learned of a possible climate failure when I was in Jr high....the disruption of the gulf stream towards Greenland. That is what I'm waiting for.......after the pack ice is all gone.
The one thing I have learned, is we are the most selfish animal on this planet. Sharing seems to come hard.
But, every year we pull down a few more life killing dams on the west coast....so we will see...I am still hopeful.
Jim
Sweet...I was an optimist when I was a kid. Since then, I have had an intimate look at humans in many walks.
Spent time on a farm, spent time in the city, and now I stand in a stream for a dose of reality....as opposed to what most consider reality.
I've come to know Judges, rocket scientists, animal trainers, body builders and beggars, prisoners, and VIPs. I've shot (photographed) the sheriff, and Vice president/President, photographed shootings....and accidents aplenty. The worlds horrors are numerous, and the fixes are few.
I remember when I could taste the air that burned my eyes, and lungs in SoCal in the 60s...Now the air is clean, but our administration wants older profit making ways, and low/no penalty regs.
This isn't political.....this is greedy and suicidal.
Since my dad negotiated for ballistic missiles when I was a kid, and I had a poster of a missile silo in first grade, I am very aware how close to the edge this house of cards we call life really is.
To repair the planet we would all have to pull together at the same time, in the same direction.
I can't see that coming........except for maybe a couple more generations....the kids voting in the next few elections will tell the tale. I learned of a possible climate failure when I was in Jr high....the disruption of the gulf stream towards Greenland. That is what I'm waiting for.......after the pack ice is all gone.
The one thing I have learned, is we are the most selfish animal on this planet. Sharing seems to come hard.
But, every year we pull down a few more life killing dams on the west coast....so we will see...I am still hopeful.
Jim
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