Big Tuna help

[fishordie]

After 5 decades of long range fishing using every type of artificials you can imagine I am finally getting into big tuna fishing on the fly from an anchored
West Coast Long Range Boat. I am looking for any and all recommendations for everything from fly selection, best connections, best fly lines, etc. I have spent most of my life landing big fish on small and light gear so I have the technique for fighting fish but the fly thing for blue water big fish is brand new to me. I love fly fishing salt water flats and trout but have never done the blue water thing. I am thinking some of my connections may not be up to the new task. Any and all help is appreciated.

As a note I am also looking for a spare Abel Super 14 spool. Any color will do though I just purchased a beautiful used Super 13 in Marlin colors so of course Marlin would be my preference.

Also looking for another 14 - 15 wt. fly rod for better casting of flies. My gusa is a beast for lobbing shooting heads but would like another rod for loading up and casting lighter lines

Thank you

Jamie

 

[mrfzx]

Big blue water tuna, yellowfin or blue, (fish over 100 pounds) is high on my bucket list. I put together a rig last year for Alaskan Halibut on the fly, but unfortunately it didn't pan out. This summer the guide says we'll try harder. I matched a TFO Heavy Duty Blue Water Rod, which is rated up to 16 weight, with a TFO 425 Large Arbor reel. For fly line I spooled an Orvis Gen 3 WF-15-SV line, and wound on 300 yards of 50 pound Power Pro gel spun backing. For leaders I took a page from my father-in-laws Costa Rican tarpon experience. 4 foot of 40 pound Fluoro looped to a bimini twist of the same weight line looped to a 30 inch 50 pound fluoro tippet. Total leader length is 8 1/2 feet.

 

[fishordie]

Thank you for the info Mrfzx.

Since I make my own Spectra to flouro knotless leaders I plan on using that thus eliminating the mono to flouro connection. I am not sure if I will need
a short Butt section to turn the fly over as right now my Gusa rod is a beast and is designed for Lobbing (One back and One forward cast) heavy shooting heads such as 750 grain line. I have Teeny line on it now in 450 - 750 grain however the big line is what is best for this rod. I am looking for another rod with a better blend of loading ability and fighting ability. I have not seen or played with the Helios 14 wt, Sage Cross Current or others so I am very open for suggestions. Thank you for your help.

Jamie

Big blue water tuna, yellowfin or blue, (fish over 100 pounds) is high on my bucket list. I put together a rig last year for Alaskan Halibut on the fly, but unfortunately it didn't pan out. This summer the guide says we'll try harder. I matched a TFO Heavy Duty Blue Water Rod, which is rated up to 16 weight, with a TFO 425 Large Arbor reel. For fly line I spooled an Orvis Gen 3 WF-15-SV line, and wound on 300 yards of 50 pound Power Pro gel spun backing. For leaders I took a page from my father-in-laws Costa Rican tarpon experience. 4 foot of 40 pound Fluoro looped to a bimini twist of the same weight line looped to a 30 inch 50 pound fluoro tippet. Total leader length is 8 1/2 feet.

 

[MoscaPescador]

The shop that I used to work at had a new Sage Xi2 1480-4 on clearance. It was there when I visited the shop last week. That would be a good rod for your purpose. Match it up with a Scientific Anglers Mastery Billfish WF15F.

If you are casting into a feeding frenzy, try fishing a pattern that resembles a mangled baitfish. Fly H20 has a "Cut Bait" pattern. It looks like an injured fish with guts hanging out.

Otherwise throw out some patterns that look like the local baitfish. Make sure that they are tied onto stout hooks. Some of the Mike Robrahn patterns tied by Rainy's are great producers.

For information on the rod, call 916-722-1055.

Dennis

 

[mrfzx]

Yeah, that TFO I have is definitely a lobber, but in order to have a stiff enough butt section to provide lifting power, a real concern in blue water, I can't imagine it having much if any flex. I have never really seen a rod over 12wt that was IMHO really "castable". If you find one let me know.

 

[fishordie]

Thank you guys for the info. I have been phoning almost everyone in the industry for advice. I have had nothing but positive comments with everyone adding in great advice. This is something not really done out here so I think I might now remember what it is like to be a virgin....LOL. A lot of excitement, a bit of trepidation and a whole lot to learn. However, once I get it I plan on not letting go. And just like a virgin I many go skinnier rather than fatter just to keep up appearances.......I mean a 14 wt. vs. a 16 wt. ... What were you guys thinking...... as far as the rod size goes....LOL Please keep the comments and advice flowing.

Jamie

The shop that I used to work at had a new Sage Xi2 1480-4 on clearance. It was there when I visited the shop last week. That would be a good rod for your purpose. Match it up with a Scientific Anglers Mastery Billfish WF15F.

If you are casting into a feeding frenzy, try fishing a pattern that resembles a mangled baitfish. Fly H20 has a "Cut Bait" pattern. It looks like an injured fish with guts hanging out.

Otherwise throw out some patterns that look like the local baitfish. Make sure that they are tied onto stout hooks. Some of the Mike Robrahn patterns tied by Rainy's are great producers.

For information on the rod, call 916-722-1055.

Dennis

 

[wjc]

The entire orignial post was written bass ackwards so this entire post is an edit.

I'll start again. I....

1). Sandpaper the end of the fluoro to a blunt point. Spectra fibers going over a square edge is not good.

2) I shove the fluoro up into the braid about 2 feet for leader butts

3). I scuff an area of the fluoro about 1 1/2" long at that 2 foot mark with 600 grit sandpaper before running the spectra any further up.

4) I make a superglue bump on the fluoro where it has been scuffed with very fine (600 grit) sandpaper and taper each end of the bump with a toothpick. Then let it dry solid. UV cure would probably also work fine.

5) I run the fluro futher in so the spectra goes over the bump and past it.

6) I tie a nail knot over the spectra and glue with JB adhesive.

The purpose of the tapered glue bump is to prevent the serve from slipping on the fluoro when casting. When casting, the spectra (or any hollow braid) is alternately loose then tight, and the weight of large hooks are repeatedly tugging on the serve.

The bump not only prevents the serve mechanically from slipping down the fluoro, but also takes most of the force in compression before the force even reaches the serve.

 

[fishordie]

Hi Jim,

Yes, I have been doing Knotless connections for years using hollow spectra to both form a knotless end loop as well as using the finger cuff to hold the mono or flouro into the hollow spectra. I tend to use a serving vs. glue as a means to start the cuffing technique however I have always fed the mono up into the spectra much further than you are noting in order to get 100% strength at the connection. I learned from Basil of BHP who really revolutionized the concept into a commercial practice. He actually has a how to on his web site at

BHP Tackle - Wind-On Leaders - Topshots - Fluorocarbon Wind-On Leaders - Hollow Spectra

We have been doing it for years and recently a few others along with Basil have been experimenting with a shorter insertion length for the Popping market using spinners. The results appear good but not quite as good as a 3 or 4 foot insertion length however for my applications 6 - 12 inches of insertion should be good enough along with a serve. Contrary to popular belief it is the "Cuffing" action which holds the line into the hollow spectra rather than the serve, crimp or nail not. The serve only acts as a means to tighten up the cuff similar to the chinese finger trap toy used by kids.

I have been chatting with many of the fly line companies and have a fair amount of interest in creating a methodology where we can create a honest loop in the end of a fly line which will actually hold more than a few pounds of drag pressure and hopefully the kind of drag needed to catch the bigger fish we are targeting. It is the weak link between both ends of the fly line which holds the biggest concern to me and am hoping to combine the techniques we have been developing for years using conventionals and now Spinners to make something better for fly anglers. Or at least me...LOL. I find it interesting to see some great drags on fabulous reels which cannot be fully employed due to these weak links.

I have some other ideas in the mean time to blend in a loop by removing the coating from some of the braided mono cores or solid cores depending on the manufacturer and potentially create a smooth transition between the ends of the fly line buy using some hollow spectra to create the knotless loop. I have lots to think about and lots to develop but the need is absolutely here if the industry is to grow and allow anglers to catch bigger and bigger fish. It would be great, even for IGFA folks, who use 16 or 20 pound tippet, to get the full benefit of their line ratings rather than lose strength in the noted connections using an Albright, Bimini or ???.

I will also try some versions of the Bob Sands knot which is usually relegated to Spectra to mono connections but who knows. I am a newbie to this blue water thing so I still have hopes and dreams. More importantly I appear to have a bunch of industry folks more than interested to see how things progress...... or not.

In the mean time please keep the advice coming as I am a sponge and want to learn Obie Wans....

Jamie

I don't know how you are doing your spectra to fluro leader butt connection, but I have been scuffing the sheen off the fluoro about an inch and a half up from the end I stuff into the hollow spectra and tapering the end of it to a blunt point with sandpaper.

Then up about a half inch below where I started the scuffing, I put a drop of superglue on the fluoro so both ends are tapered - making a tapered bump on the fluoro.

Then I run the spectra over the glue bump and nail knot it just downhill of the bump, nearly touching it, (instead of using half hitches) and glue with the Jerry Brown spectra adhesive. I've been using the glue bump method for mono/dacron braid to fluoro connections for a couple years, and just switched to JB spectra on one spool (soon to be three spools) and figured I'd do the same with it.

It's probably unnecessary, just a little added insurance. The weakest part of the link in the direct fluoro, hollow braid connection - regardless of which type of braid or serve - is slippage at that junction.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[mrfzx]

I had my father-in-law call one of his friends down Costa Rica that do some pelagic fly fishing, (JB's Charter Service) and they highly reccommend a bite tippet of some type of wire when fishing for toothy critters. They like red coated braided wire, 12 to 16 inches in length. I am told they put a crimped loop on both ends, and use the loop to attach the fly and leader respectively.

 

[fishordie]

Yo MRFZX,

I have had others, including Conway Bowman, talk to me about wire. I am not convinced it is necessary if you tie your flies onto a quality circle hook unless you are targeting Shark or Wahoo. Again, I may learn differently in the trenches but we will see. I always carry wire with me and can make up some leaders if I feel that is the ticket but as of now I do not think it will be required.

Basil of BHP tackle, who makes premade wind on knotless leaders, sent me an even better link to a capt. who also does what I have been describing with his fly lines using hollow spectra to capture and cuff the fly line. I do this on both ends of the fly line but use a piece of spectra with a premade loop rather than do it after the fact or splice into the backing. By using a
loop to loop connection, contrary to the Captains explanation, by merely pulling on each side of a loop to loop connection on the main line you can get the connection to pop and release making the change out of fly lines very simple and quick. Anyway, it is worth checking this out for those who are chasing some serious fish.

As a note, I have extensively tested peoples knots which they thought were very strong. Very rarely have I seen most folks ever get more than 70% of their line strength using a bimini or albright knot with most getting about 50% of line strength using a straight pull. It is worse when I tested using a snapping type motion but that is to be expected. These knotless leaders provide a 100% strength connection when done Spectra to Spectra or inserted appropriate sized mono or flouro into the hollow Spectra and served per the provided pictures. I will test at some point how they work over a fly line but for now I know this technique blows away either a nail knot, bimini, albright or ??? and is a smooth transition through the guides.

http://www.capth3.com/public/The_Hollow_Connection.pdf

I have presented to Basil the concept of creating a knotless connection for 16 and 20 pound tippet for IGFA work but I am not sure a straight length of
tippet can be held by the present hollow lines as generally we use no less than 30 pound mono or flouro HOWEVER I am going to read up on IGFA rules at some point and chat with the leader guys to see if we can create a tapered leader which can be held at 30 pound test diameter through the spectra and tapers down to the appropriate tippet size without adding a knot which I expect will meet IGFA rules but again I have not read up on them as of yet.

http://bhptackle.com/index.php


Jamie

I had my father-in-law call one of his friends down Costa Rica that do some pelagic fly fishing, (JB's Charter Service) and they highly reccommend a bite tippet of some type of wire when fishing for toothy critters. They like red coated braided wire, 12 to 16 inches in length. I am told they put a crimped loop on both ends, and use the loop to attach the fly and leader respectively.

 

[wjc]

I have always fed the mono up into the spectra much further than you are noting in order to get 100% strength at the connection.

Jamie,

You misread my post. I never mentioned how far I run fluoro up into the spectra. OK, I see what caused the confusion on a re-reading of my post. I wrote it wrong. Sorry.

I'll start again. I....

1). Sandpaper the end of the fluoro to a blunt point. Spectra fibers going over a square edge is not good.

2) I shove the fluoro up into the braid about 2 feet for leader butts

3). I scuff an area of the mono about 1 1/2" long at that 2 foot mark before running the spectra any further up.

4) I make my glue bump as previously described and let it dry.

5) I run the fluro futher in so the spectra goes over the bump and past it.

6) I tie a nail knot over the spectra and glue with JB adhesive.

The purpose of the tapered glue bump is to prevent the serve from slipping on the fluoro when casting. Because when casting, the spectra(or any hollow braid) is alternately loose then tight, and the weight of large hooks it putting very short lived, but relatively large forces on the serve.

The bump not only prevents the serve mechanically from slipping down the fluoro, but also takes most of the force in compression before the force even reaches the serve.

I'm going back to change the wording of that first post, because it is exactly wrong!

PS Edit: All my current butt leaders have double squeeze Guidbrode hollow mono or braided dacron direct connections to the leader butts. I do not have any spectra that will open wide enough to accept the front end of the fly line. They are two part, with dacron (served each end) under 50 lb. Gudebrood which overlaps the serves on the dacron.

Butt leader end

Fly line end:

 

[fishordie]

Thank you Jim,

Excellent. I will also be experimenting with hollow spectra over the fly line to also create a knotless connection. You would be surprised to see how big a line you can get inside the proper size hollow spectra. I have lots to learn and discover.

Jamie

Jamie

Jamie,

You misread my post. I never mentioned how far I run fluoro up into the spectra. OK, I see what caused the confusion on a re-reading of my post. I wrote it wrong. Sorry.

I'll start again. I....

1). Sandpaper the end of the fluoro to a blunt point. Spectra fibers going over a square edge is not good.

2) I shove the fluoro up into the braid about 2 feet for leader butts

3). I scuff an area of the mono about 1 1/2" long at that 2 foot mark before running the spectra any further up.

4) I make my glue bump as previously described and let it dry.

5) I run the fluro futher in so the spectra goes over the bump and past it.

6) I tie a nail knot over the spectra and glue with JB adhesive.

The purpose of the tapered glue bump is to prevent the serve from slipping on the fluoro when casting. Because when casting, the spectra(or any hollow braid) is alternately loose then tight, and the weight of large hooks it putting very short lived, but relatively large forces on the serve.

The bump not only prevents the serve mechanically from slipping down the fluoro, but also takes most of the force in compression before the force even reaches the serve.

I'm going back to change the wording of that first post, because it is exactly wrong!

PS Edit: All my current butt leaders have double squeeze Guidbrode hollow mono or braided dacron direct connections to the leader butts. I do not have any spectra that will open wide enough to accept the front end of the fly line. They are two part, with dacron (served each end) under 50 lb. Gudebrood which overlaps the serves on the dacron.

Butt leader end

Fly line end:

 

[wjc]

Jamie,

One thing to remember is to make sure you get white in JB or uncolored line in any other brand that has it. Spectra cannot be dyed, so they basically paint it. It can be spliced, but it is a major pain. I wound up washing some yellow I had with Dawn detergent to make it easier to splice. The color comes right out with Dawn.

I may not use spectra at all for the butt leaders because the Gudebroode 50 lb hollow mono over dacron braid makes for a very smooth turnover without hinging even with 5/0 flies. The reason for the dacron under it is because it grabs the fluoro much better than 50 lb Gudebroode alone and also increases the diameter so the 50 lb can then grab on it too.

I've been trying to get ahold of my JB dealer (who's also a sportsfisher captain out of Lighthouse Point, FL) to get another 600 yds of 65 lb JB and 80 lb JB. But we've been playing phone tag.

Good luck with your quest. My buddy who is a retired guide and sportsfisher captain taught me about splices, top shots, windons, teasing billfish, rigging split-tail mullet teasers etc. etc. He's also the one who gave me the mega-rod that one of his clients (who was after a fly rod record bluefin) gave him. It's a whole different world from flats fishing.

PS: On the backing end, it is nice to have a number of different sizes of spectra to up-splice with for either direct connections to the fly line or loops that won't cut into the braided loop on the end of the running line. There, spectra is much better than hollow mono braid.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[fishordie]

Hi Jim,

Yup, I have used about 10,000 Yds of J.B. Spectra since 2003/2004 and other than replacing some seagull pecked, boat rashed or other frayed/rubbed sections the J.B. holds up amazing. With the Hollow I just cut out the bad and splice in the new. Piece of cake and 100% strength.
I also agree as far as splicing up from 60 pound J.B. Hollow to something bigger. I usually end up with 80 or 130 hollow for the last short bit as it makes for a better loop to loop connection but for fly fishing I am not too worried about it only because I am assuming the hollow spectra going over the fly line will be in the 130 - 300 pound range of J.B. but I am not certain yet as it will be dependent on what fly line I go with. Right now the Rio Leviathan and the previously mentioned S.A. lines are looking good but there does not appear to be anything wrong with the better priced Teeny line as well. Because I will be using both a floating line as well as a sinking line it will be interesting to see what happens. I will just figure it out as I go.

As far as grab-ability for me I find the J.B. Spectra much better than any hollow Dacron for grabbing mono or flouro but that is just my opinion though out here most of us stopped using Dacron about 8 years ago on our bigger conventional gear. Many of the competitors braided products have a waxy feel to them or are coated with something making them very poor candidates for knotless connections. Additionally it is super important to use the appropriate glue and conditioner to make sure there is a proper bond through the serving material as well as the bond between the mono and the Spectra.

Anyway, please keep up the input.

Jamie

Jamie,

One thing to remember is to make sure you get white in JB or uncolored line in any other brand that has it. Spectra cannot be dyed, so they basically paint it. It can be spliced, but it is a major pain. I wound up washing some yellow I had with Dawn detergent to make it easier to splice. The color comes right out with Dawn.

I may not use spectra at all for the butt leaders because the Gudebroode 50 lb hollow mono over dacron braid makes for a very smooth turnover without hinging even with 5/0 flies. The reason for the dacron under it is because it grabs the fluoro much better than 50 lb Gudebroode alone and also increases the diameter so the 50 lb can then grab on it too.

I've been trying to get ahold of my JB dealer (who's also a sportsfisher captain out of Lighthouse Point, FL) to get another 600 yds of 65 lb JB and 80 lb JB. But we've been playing phone tag.

Good luck with your quest. My buddy who is a retired guide and sportsfisher captain taught me about splices, top shots, windons, teasing billfish, rigging split-tail mullet teasers etc. etc. He's also the one who gave me the mega-rod that one of his clients (who was after a fly rod record bluefin) gave him. It's a whole different world from flats fishing.

PS: On the backing end, it is nice to have a number of different sizes of spectra to up-splice with for either direct connections to the fly line or loops that won't cut into the braided loop on the end of the running line. There, spectra is much better than hollow mono braid.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[wjc]

Jamie,

It seems to me that you have more than enough experience with the connections and such.

I don't know what fly line you are intending to use, but I have some unused running line I cut off a Rio 550 gr. tropical floating levethian line for you to play with if you want. It is the blue 30' head with green solid core running line.

I quickly read the "Hollow connection" link but didn't look at all the pictures. One thing I noticed is that the author recommended sanding the fly line the full length that is stuffed into the hollow spectra.

I would hesitate to do this on fly line. If you look at any fly line with a loupe, you will see that its surface is anything but smooth. In fact, it looks like a lacquer job with very regular orange peel that would have to be knocked down with fine paper before the final coat. It is very regularly bumpy surface, like it's been sprayed on. It's also soft and a very good surface for the squeeze. The green sticks to the coating well, but can be removed pretty easily after soaking in acetone - which does not affect the surface of the core beneath.

I have only been running my fly line up into braided mono loops about a foot and have been more than comfortable with that on tarpon to about 135 lbs. but I've never caught any big tuna on anything.

It's the connection to the fluoro that I'd be worried about. My buddy runs his mono top shots way up into braid - 8 or 10 feet it feels like- on his conventional gear. Whether that's necessary or not, who knows. But that's why I added the glue bump on my leader butts.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[fishordie]

Hi Jim,

Guys like Basil and myself have tested the heck out of these things. In my case I own an Aerospace manufacturing firm so I used some pretty great tools to prove out my theories. 3 - 4 feet of insertion and a proper glue and serve and you will see 100% strength. At least that is what works for mono or flouro. As you note my concern is regarding a non rigid outer section of fly line and how it will collapse or contain the pulled down serve.
over the hollow to fly line insertion. I too am not certain about the need to rough sand the fly line but I will test and find out. Thank you for the offer of the section of fly line but I think I have enough to play with... I think.

Jamie

Jamie,

It seems to me that you have more than enough experience with the connections and such.

I don't know what fly line you are intending to use, but I have some unused running line I cut off a Rio 550 gr. tropical floating levethian line for you to play with if you want. It is the blue 30' head with green solid core running line.

I quickly read the "Hollow connection" link but didn't look at all the pictures. One thing I noticed is that the author recommended sanding the fly line the full length that is stuffed into the hollow spectra.

I would hesitate to do this on fly line. If you look at any fly line with a loupe, you will see that its surface is anything but smooth. In fact, it looks like a lacquer job with very regular orange peel that would have to be knocked down with fine paper before the final coat. It is very regularly bumpy surface, like it's been sprayed on. It's also soft and a very good surface for the squeeze. The green sticks to the coating well, but can be removed pretty easily after soaking in acetone - which does not affect the surface of the core beneath.

I have only been running my fly line up into braided mono loops about a foot and have been more than comfortable with that on tarpon to about 135 lbs. but I've never caught any big tuna on anything.

It's the connection to the fluoro that I'd be worried about. My buddy runs his mono top shots way up into braid - 8 or 10 feet it feels like- on his conventional gear. Whether that's necessary or not, who knows. But that's why I added the glue bump on my leader butts.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[wjc]

Super, Jamie. If you do any equipment or line testing, make sure you let us know your findings.

And good luck on the tuna!

Cheers,
Jim