Casting big flies tied on size 2 hooks

[jkim]

Yesterday, for the very first time, I went saltwater fly fishing here in southern California. I really liked my brief saltwater experience in Pensacola Florida. The inlets have knee-deep flats where the water are clear and calm with a lot of different fish. My son got ghost shrimp fly patterns about 2 inch long, hook size #10 for me and worked really well.

Hoping to catch some big California Halibut and Corbina I brought these 'big' and beautiful shrimp patterns tied on size 2 hooks. The rod was the same St Croix LE 5wt with Rio Gold 6wt. Very early in the morning I drove 30 minutes to get to the Long Beach harbor where the water was relatively calm but it's nothing like those flats in Florida. And it's very tough to fly fish against cold and pounding waves of Pacific Ocean. Anyway I was still very excited to get there with my fly rod then this funny thing happened. On my very first cast the loop collapsed in the air and the fly simply fell into the water just about 20 ft from me when I wanted to cast about 50 ft. Tried roll casts but the result was same. I wasn't able to properly cast at all. Then I switched to a 4 inch long streamer (shiner) tied on size 6 hook. It was so much better but wasn't good enough. I caught one Mackerel and that was it. BETTER THAN NOTHING. Well I put the blame on my poor casting skills then I thought it might be the fly rod which was not strong enough to throw big flies. So what would be the proper fly rod weight to throw flies tied on size 2 hooks? And I still think my casting skills need to be improved. Any tips?

 

[Ard]

Hi,

I cast flies of the same size almost exclusively and sometimes on light lines however your 5/6 combo would not be my preference. It can be done, were you trying to cast in a traditional fashion using multiple false casts between presentation casts?

If you were doing what I just ask that may be the problem. If you must continue with the 5 weight rod you might try this.

Place a short cast on the water in front of you and then pick it right up into a single back cast and put it out and down a little further out. As you are trying to lengthen your cast allow each forward cast to land on the waters surface, then using the tension of line on water to load the rod to the maximum put the line into a powerful back cast.

Allow the back cast to fully extend to your rear then make as powerful of forward cast as you can. As the line unfurls out front release some running line and shoot the additional line into the forward cast.

When it lands if it is still not at the desired distance repeat the cast again each time lengthening the line as you shoot forward. Don't allow the line to reside on the surface long enough for those large flies to begin to sink deeply or your 5 weight may not be able to rip them back up.

Once you determine whether the rod line combo will handle the flies then you can work on timing and technique. With practice you may find it easy to allow some additional line to slip into those power back casts.

I have fished many conditions including light salt water with a 7'9" five weight rod and WF 5 line. While it is not the perfect tool for the job one can adapt those timing and technique points mentioned you should be able to get some enjoyable fishing in.

Last thing, on the retrieve don't strip things in to the point where you will need to make 7 or 8 of the described casts to reach your target zone again. I prefer to find the maximum range for the rod line and fly combo then only retrieve about one half to two thirds back in then I lift the line up and out and go into the back cast. This way I can keep the fly in the target area more and do less work to do so.

Remember, a five weight is not the ideal tool for what you want to do so there will be limitations. You can however teach yourself to fish the way I have tried to describe.

Ard

 

[mikechell]

One thing most people, even advanced fly rod wielders, forget ... BACKCAST IS EVERYTHING !!!
Unless your spey/skaggit/roll casting, that is.

Go on YouTube ... watch anglers fishing. (not the casting instructions, just fishing trips) You'll see people doing it all the time ... pulling line for the back cast then forward casting way too soon.
If you start the forward cast before the line has fully played out behind you, you are losing a huge part of your energy for the forward distance.

 

[bonefish41]

I agree with previous suggestions...adding where was and how much wind... was it on your back killing your back cast...you're a bit light for big sur and big fly 8 or 9 with big fly...that venue suggests to me the integrated shooting heads such as RIO outbounds... quick load minimal fast casts...but definitely wait on back cast but if wind back side then you cannot carry 50 feet flyline on your back cast it will unload your rod...

Also when you were casting, was the rod loaded properly or was it collapsing as in overloaded??
Water loading is good unless the surf was pushing your line under water or weeds in the water to foul your fly?
If this is going to be a regular event...get an 8wt...you can never have too many fly rods...just accept the addiction and frustrations and enjoy and BTW even ten or fifteen Sage Xs or Loomis Asquiths is way cheaper than extra lady friends

 

[karstopo]

I don’t like to work so hard casting flies that are too big for a rod. If a fly is heavy and not too wind resistant, I can usually get the fly moving and use the momentum to my advantage. That means a Belgian cast, a kind of continuous motion cast without hard stops. There’s videos online.

If the fly is bulky and particularly wind resistant but relatively weightless, the only thing I know to do is shorten and stiffen the leader as much as possible. But if you are after Halibut, I’m guessing the Shrimp pattern was weighted so I’d try a Belgian cast.

 

[flav]

Step up to an 8 weight. If you're planning on spending more time in the salt where the wind usually blows, the fish are stronger, and the flies are bigger it just makes sense.

Or you can save your money and continue using your 5 weight. You can use the extra cash to pay the physical therapist.

 

[mtbright]

I have fished the harbor in Long Beach I would not use a 5 wt, I would get a 8 wt. also look at taking a half day with a guide and pick their brain and they can help in many ways. Well worth it.

Matt

 

[jofer]

Remember that the transport of the fly is done by the weight of the line head.

For a size 2, you need a bigger line, a 8/9 wt.

Regards

Jofer

 

[philly]

You didn't mention what type of line you were using. Most of my salt water fishing is done from jetties and groins or wading along the beaches in inlets. I have a slightly arthritic shoulder so I use my 9' 6" 6 wgt. I've got a couple of extra spools for my reel and in salt water I use either an intermediate line or full sinking line. Both of these make it easier to punch the line through the wind. Leader set up for the intermediate is a 5 foot furled leader made from 20 lb fluorocarbon and a 4 to 6 foot fluorocarbon leader from 25 to 40 lb. For the sinking line I just use a straight piece of 25 to 40 lb fluorocarbon.

 

[tcorfey]

I would agree with others that I would tend to use an 8wt rod in your scenario.

 

[jkim]

Thank you, Ard for the expert suggestions. It already happened during false casts... trying double haul to achieve the maximum distance I felt some jerky feeling when stopped the first back cast to form a loop, then felt same strangeness on the forward cast like the fly was pulling me with a jerky motion so I couldn't even let any more line come out of left hand. On the second forward cast I let the line slip out of the left hand to present the shrimp anyhow but it simply dived into the water.
"Place a short cast on the water in front of you and then pick it right up into a single back cast and put it out and down a little further out. As you are trying to lengthen your cast allow each forward cast to land on the waters surface, then using the tension of line on water to load the rod to the maximum put the line into a powerful back cast.
Allow the back cast to fully extend to your rear then make as powerful of forward cast as you can. As the line unfurls out front release some running line and shoot the additional line into the forward cast.
When it lands if it is still not at the desired distance repeat the cast again each time lengthening the line as you shoot forward. Don't allow the line to reside on the surface long enough for those large flies to begin to sink deeply or your 5 weight may not be able to rip them back up."

The above tip sounds like Belgian cast as another poster, karstopo, suggested... and I already checked a couple of YouTube videos about it. I really appreciate your input and I'll definitely try this at a local pond. Then I will make another trip to the Long Beach harbor or some other places. I know I was not totally prepared for saltwater fly fishing in California. But eventually though, I need to get a stronger fly rod hopefully it makes things easier and more enjoyable.

 

[jkim]

You didn't mention what type of line you were using. Most of my salt water fishing is done from jetties and groins or wading along the beaches in inlets. I have a slightly arthritic shoulder so I use my 9' 6" 6 wgt. I've got a couple of extra spools for my reel and in salt water I use either an intermediate line or full sinking line. Both of these make it easier to punch the line through the wind. Leader set up for the intermediate is a 5 foot furled leader made from 20 lb fluorocarbon and a 4 to 6 foot fluorocarbon leader from 25 to 40 lb. For the sinking line I just use a straight piece of 25 to 40 lb fluorocarbon.

I used WF6F Rio Gold, 6' 6-8wt furled leader (don't remember the maker), 10LB Vanish fluorocarbon as tippet.

 

[jkim]

Thank you guys for all your suggestions and comments. I will definitely look into getting a proper fly rod - perhaps a 7, 8, or 9wt rod. During my lunch break I read the above Ard's post again and again and watched some Youtube videos about this Belgian cast. Then I thought about different fishing situations like any inner harbor and on the beach. "using the tension of line on water to load the rod" would not be so easy when fly fishing open ocean from inshore where you get to cast against incoming cold and treacherous waves/wind constantly pushing and drifting the line. I really think I need a heavier rod to fish in this condition. Nonetheless I can certainly practice the skill when fishing inner harbors like Long Beach, Balboa, or Newport Beach, where the water is calmer but I should expect some obstacles and fish diversity and populations are limited as well. Well, that's what I got.

 

[mtbright]

I find using this cast helps using the water to load the rod. You can load it to the left or right and not just back

 

[jkim]

I think it's the wind that stops the big fly in the air and prevents the line from going any further and forming a tight loop. Bigger flies have large surface areas that take more wind resistance. I definitely need to improve my casting skills to fight the wind. At the same time, I'm in need of a stronger rod that can propel a heavier fly line to overcome the wind resistance and to carry a big fly through it. Physics and mechanics involved in fly fishing are amazing. But I believe, after all, nothing beats years of experience. Thanks again guys.

 

[karstopo]

I’d like to see those size 2 shrimp. I fish a lot of weight shrimp on size 4 and 2 hooks over here on the third coast, but your shrimp sound bigger than mine. One other wind trick I use is to cast low to the water. Sometimes, just a few feet above the waves is a relatively calm column of air. Dropping down and casting more side arm helps.

 

[jkim]

Just over 4 inches long.

 

[peterjay]

There are times when casting into the wind is flat-out impossible, no matter what rod you use. If you're using a 5wt in wind and "pounding waves," all you're gonna get is frustrated. I've been surf fishing the Northeast for 50+ years, and the lightest I use is a 9wt, with a 10wt and 12wt in reserve if conditions warrant heavier gear. Some of my friends go lighter, but an 8wt is the bare minimum. For sheltered bays, wading flats, and inlets, you can get away with a 6wt or 7wt., but no 5wt in existence is gonna give you the lifting power to control a heavy fish, which you're gonna encounter sooner or later. It's like going moose hunting with a .22. BTW - weighted flies will cast better in the wind, but it's easy to whack yourself in the head with a less-than-perfect cast or a sudden gust. Trust me on that one. If you feel your casting skills are lacking, there's no substitute for practice, as long as you're practicing the right things. There are lots of videos online, and you can always take a lesson or two to put you on the right track.

 

[Scoots McGoots]

Yup, I agree with everyone else... try a heavier rod, 8 or 9 wt... also start working on your double haul.

 

[dennyk]

When throwing large bass/pike flies the Belgian cast works very well for me, especially when it's windy out.

Denny