Spey Line Question

steeleman

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I recently purchased a 12'6", 7wt. spey rod, reel, backing, line and leader altogether. The line is Scientific Angler Spey Evolution, 530 grain mid-head line. It has a 52'6' head length. I have had minimal experience casting a Skagit line. From my reading on this site and others it seems that my line would be much harder to learn on than either a Skagit or Scandi line. My first question is should I junk this line and put on a Skagit or Scandi line? My next question is that it is my understanding that head weight (mine is 530 grains) is contained in the first 30 feet of a fly line, thus it seem to me that if I cast 30 feet of my 530 grain line it would act like the appropriate for my rod Skagit or Scandi line. I understand that the Skagit and Scandi line would cast further because of the running line V. my remaining head length but I don't understand why Skagit or Scandi line would be easier to cast? I live in Western New York. Finally, can you use the same line for Atlantic salmon and Great Lakes steelhead? If my current line is not appropriate, what would you recommend?

Thanks,
Steelman
 

Ard

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Hello,

Like many replies I've made here over the years this has turned into a fairly long dissertation, reason being that I find it hard to provide decent amount of detail in a few short sentences. I'm told that todays audience has a much shorter attention span that that which existed before the digital age, that didn't stop me.............

I have an answer for you but must tread carefully so not to impugn the many people who learned with and use short head Spey lines. Each type of line that one can use with a 2 hand fly rod have their virtues and weaknesses, they final choice in head / belly length is up to the individual angler.

You are correct in that learning to Spey cast with a 55' line can be more difficult than with one much shorter. However, this is where we first encounter some of those virtues and weaknesses.

First it may help if I disclose to you my own learning process and the lines involved. I'll try to clarify what I mean based on my own experiences. During the mid 1990's I learned to Spey cast using a nine foot single hand rod with a standard WF #5 line. I had no idea that the casting I was doing had a name let alone that there was a river called The Spey or rods bearing the same name, I simply developed a casting style which allowed me to fish in difficult places and used it. When I bought a 13' rod I had no clue of what line to get and this was when I became first exposed to the huge array of head lengths and types of lines available for Spey casting. My first line was a Scientific Anglers 55' full Spey line with multiple tips which could be interchanged. I was not happy with that line so I bought an Ian Gordon 140 foot line which had a seventy foot head and it was with that line that I commenced to learn to cast. The process was not easy but in retrospect learning to be a good single hand caster was not a simple process either, it took a commitment to learn all the basics and then years of on the water experience to hone my skills to the point where fly fishing was not something difficult but something that I became better at every time I had a rod in my hands. Spey casting and fishing the long rods followed the same course. What I can tell you in complete honesty is that if a person learns to cast using Mid Belly lines (45 - 65' in length) that caster should be able to quickly adapt to and cast any rod and line combination using the basic Spey style casts. The same may not be true for those who learn with and then use only short head lines. Does this make the long belly caster a better caster or fisherman? That I cannot answer in a concise statement. What I can tell you is that I have been handed rods varying in length from 10'6" switch models up to 16 foot tournament rods loaded with 90 foot long belly line and have been able to cast them all with decent results. My contention would be that people who learn using longer heads can develop a better understanding of the basic mechanics of casting and what the relationship between rod power, timing, belly length and your personal control regarding how much speed and force you impart into each cast.

Now to those virtues and weaknesses ........... Short head lines rigged to a very thin running / shooting line put all of the mass needed to load a rod right in front of the user, usually with between 22 and 28 feet of line. Considering that most Spey rods are at least 12 foot long this length of fly line belly is not exactly a difficult amount of line to learn to control. Most people quickly learn to get the heads to load up a rod and are making casts quickly. There are a lot of pieces of terminology you will encounter as a beginner, things like Anchor, Anchor Point, Sweep, D Loop, Rotation, and Stance to name a few. There are others that pop up as you experience difficulties, things like; Blown Anchor, Stuck Anchor, A Tight Casting Box or Open Casting Box this box business refers to keeping the elbows and forearms tucked close to the body and is something referred to most often with the use of short head lines.

So, a very big virtue of the short head is that it can get a person casting and casting relatively well in a short period of time. It also is true that these lines are suitable for a wide range of fishing situations and are very popular. What if any then are the weaknesses of short head systems? Due to the fact that the weighted and high floating portion of the line is only 22 - 28 feet long and is connected to a very light and thin shooting line to allow for distance casting the angler has virtually no control over the head and thus the fly when a cast exceeding 45 foot or more is made. The line head and the fly are out there and that's that. There are times, situations where and when it may be desirable for an angler to be able to exert some level of control over the drifting line as well as the fly. When using a short belly line this "level of control over the drifting line" is often sacrificed. Another facet of the short head line is that while it does do a splendid job of loading up a rod and it will enable even a person new to Spey casting to achieve distance in their casts, that head must be fully recovered prior to making a second cast. Recovered by hand stripping in all of the shooting line that has exited the rod tip on each successive cast that is. One must bring the rear portion of the head (in most cases) back to and into the rod tip to some degree prior to making each cast. If and when the angler is working the fly along a current seam some 60 to 70 feet away this business of recovering the shooting line can result is a lot of hand stripping during the course of a day.

Rather than try to develop a long list of short head weaknesses, based on personal preferences I'll leave it at just two; the lack of ability to actually control the line to any great extent and a great deal of hand stripping to recover shooting lines. Do remember the virtue that these lines allow for a fast track to casting and that they will cover a wide range of fishing situations please.

When fishing longer heads of the 45 - 55 foot variety I believe that the angler can not only fish a wide range of situations but nearly all. Once the angler understands the basic mechanics and relationships mentioned earlier, those of; "what the relationship between rod power, timing, belly length and your personal control regarding how much speed and force you impart into each cast."

In the virtue department it could be said that the longer heads allow for better control of the line and subsequently the course the fly will take in any given situation. Is this always necessary? Obviously not but I would suggest that it is a nice thing to have available when fishing. Now why did I quote the line which ended the prior paragraph? I'll give you a moment to look back at that before continuing ;) Once a caster has a good understanding of mechanics it is very helpful in understanding that the casts which are made with a longer head line are in fact the same casts made by your fellows using the short head lines. The Snap T,, Single and Double Spey, CackHand Casts, all are executed in the same way albeit with a longer portion of line protruding from ones rod tip. This business of "a longer portion of line protruding from the rod tip" can and does amount to a virtue of longer head lines. When I fish with a 45' Super Scandi line that line is fused to a vinyl coated running line, a line which floats and to some degree allows for mending and thus control of the rear portion of the floating head. Remember that this particular head is 45 foot long, so if the leader is 13 feet long, once we allow for the length of the extended Spey rod an angler can fish very effectively at 68 to seventy feet of distance with virtually no running / shooting line extended onto the water. At the end of each successive cast and swing there is about eight to ten foot of running line to recover prior to executing the next cast. And that next cast is as I said in all manner the same cast executed by our friends using a much shorter head length, just with a lot less stripping of line.

That casting "box", the stance and posture used when you set up and execute each cast? The box really isn't there. Due to the length of line extending from the rod tip the angler can use a more open casting style, one I like to think is more relaxed and less hurried than when casting with shorter heads. Yes there may still be 'Blown or Stuck Anchors' but I find this phenomena to be more related to varying current speeds where I may be positioned and casting from than whether or not I am either tucked in or more relaxed during the actual casting. Simple adjustments in timing generally correct any anchoring issues in my case.

This business of less stripping to recover shooting line can come into play in a big way when fishing in cold conditions. Less stripping = less water in the line guides, less water on the hand and fingers while allowing the angler to fish at a distance between 60 and seventy feet with great line and fly control ability. I personally like this aspect of a longer line and a 55 foot is even better as it extends the available range while affording the same virtue.

If there is a weakness to be associated with lines having a belly between 45 and 65 feet that weakness may be that they are a little more difficult to learn with. Once again the choice comes down to each angler wishing to learn. Are you in a hurry and demanding of results or do you want to do this for other reasons, reasons that may vary greatly between us all.

I'll close off this manifesto saying that I can fish fairly well using short head lines. They can excel when used in combination with sink tips at gaining depth. However they leave me standing there holding the cork hoping that a fish will grab the fly. The longer lines having an integrated running line fused into the line head eliminates the need for additional connections and seems more manageable to me than the thin shooting lines I've experienced with short heads.

I am not a casting expert nor do I have any vested interest in long line sales, I simply have developed a preference for the longer heads. They allow me to be interactive with my fishing efforts. Interactive in that I can mend and guide flies to my imaginary targets some of which aren't just imagination. By learning in what may be considered 'The Hard Way' I believe I've become a better caster and have successfully taught others to cast using the longer heads. Is one better than the other, short vs. long? I don't think so although each type does seem to have virtues and weaknesses ;)


I apologize for any typo's and will take a look at this once it posts and make any edits which seem needed.

Ard

[Note] I forgot to address the question of should you get rid of the line that came with your rod? I wouldn't do that just yet.
 

fredaevans

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As someone who learned on two hander rods a very long time ago my only add to Ard's post is he's nailed it. For pure casting with a dry fly or lightly weighted fly I'll use a full on 'spey line.'

As the fly gets bigger/heavier there I'll go with a shorter head (ditto sink tips). But the Rogue River makes this pretty easy as there really aren't that many places where a 100 foot cast would bring much to the party.
 

dillon

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I am not familiar with your line so I googled it and here's what I found:

"So you want to run an indicator rig with your two-handed rod, huh? Oh man, is this the line for you. Featuring a medium-length head and powerful front taper, the Spey Evolution is an excellent all-around Spey line that truly excels at line control, making it a perfect option for steelhead indicator rigs.

If you want to fish with an indicator perhaps this is a good line. I don't have any experience with that technique, so I will leave it at that."

Personally, I employ the wet fly swing when fishing a Spey rod for steelhead. I use full floating mid and short belly lines in the summer using a long leader and surface fly patterns. I previously used a scandi head, but find bellied lines more to my liking.

In the winter I use a skagit head with a 10 ft T 10 sink tip. I'm swinging long lightly weighted tube flies and Spey patterns on traditional irons with no added weight.

I fish PNW water that is suitable to the gear and my style of fishing. I'm fishing large fast rivers where fish hold off the main current in walking speed runs, about 3 to feet in depth.
 

Ard

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Good God! An indicator rig being Spey cast, perish the thought! Is nothing sacred any longer?

I didn't look up the line like Dillon did but guess one could do that with any line were they an accomplished caster...................... But the question begs, why?
 

Lewis Chessman

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Hello, Steeleman. May I suggest that rather than buying any new line you buy a Speycasting lesson. The line will last a couple of seasons. The lesson will last your lifetime.

The 52.5 ft head on the S.A. line should be fine on a 12' 6'' rod (unless it's truly terrible?), the trick is learning the cast to make it work.

Ard's post covers pretty much everything (and will be available in Hardback shortly ;) ), I can only emphasize a few points.

If you learn to cast using a full Spey line you'll be able to cast Skaggits and Scandis easily. The reverse is not true.
You will cast further more easily learning with a shooting head because anchor placement is not so important as it is with a Spey line. Given a bit of power, that short, heavy head will carry the fly a fair old way even if you've swept the line too far upstream on a Single Spey. Try that with a Spey line and the cast will crumple - the poor line placement will leech half the power from the cast (because the head is so much longer) and it'll land in a heap.

A big plus for the Spey line for me is (relative) delicacy in presentation - a short, heavy head can splash down very noisily, sending out sound waves which fish are able to feel, move away from or most certainly be put on their guard. Stealth matters.

Unless you are fishing vastly wide rivers I would recommend learning to cast a Spey line 'properly' from the off. If you do you'll be able to cast it as far as your average fisherman can hoick out a Scandi, you'll be able to cast his Scandi further because your technique will be honed, your placement precise and your timing ..... poetic. :)

Also, unless you're fishing wide water and you know that the fish are 'right over there' don't wade in and start casting as far as you can just because you can. If you don't know your water well (at that particular day's height) better to fish a short line off the bank, or wade tight to the edge, once down the pool then cover it a second time with a deeper wade and longer cast.

Remember, good fish will lie close in in good water and wading straight out will both scare them and/or present the fly poorly 'on the dangle' rather than on the arc as it sweeps round. 'Fish the skinny water first!'

Simply casting your fly as far as you can every time does nothing for the presentation of the fly to the fish. I'm amazed at how many of the guests I teach never once consider what their fly is actually doing in the water, but are solely concerned with throwing a long line - whether the fly turns over or not!

" Hurry Up and Slow it Down" - To my mind, timing is the essence of a good Spey Cast. Most people hurry it up when things go to pot but usually you just need to slow everything down. Try a waltz tempo, see if that helps:
Lift, 2, 3, Sweep, 2, 3, Rotate, 2, 3, Cast.
Don't let the rod stray beyond 1 o' clock behind you. If you constantly hear a ''sssllluuuurrrpppp!' you are and your D loop is collapsing, losing power. Stop the rod at about 10 o' clock in front. ''Shoot the crows'' we say.
Och .... away and get a lesson, mon! :D
 
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eastfly66

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I'm putting a long head to work on the SR this year but I have both and started on the short heads. These guys ^^ know more than I do but I don't see it as one or the other but that could change.

See you at Spey Nation (Pulaski Edition) this summer !

---------- Post added at 03:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 PM ----------

I have had minimal experience casting a Skagit line
I just made note of this, guessing your talking about fishing now and not next season. My advice would be get a short head now and grow into the long head later.
 

flytie09

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All excellent info... I'm going to pose my experience, counter arguement and what I use and why.

I fish primarily the Salmon River in NY. I get to do this 10-15 days a year. That's it. It's a decent sized Great Lakes River.... but tiny compared to many of the West Coast Steelhead Rivers. I use Skagit casting and Skagit lines. Why? I started w/ an Orvis Switch Line w/ a 11' 8 wt rod and it was ok... but I could not turn over larger flies. It was ok for smaller, sparse flies and was ok w/ Indy rigs but that's it.

I like to use weighted stoneflys, Intruders and streamers. In my hands I couldn't get the Switch line to perform. Research led me to try Skagit lines and Skagit casting. It's what these lines were designed for..... chucking big flies. In short order I was making casts I never dreamed of before. I've since all but ditched Indy fishing all together. It's swing or die now.

Others say if you learn on mid belly lines you move up the curve to use the other lines. This very well may be true. In my case...,I'm content w/ Skagit only, stripping in a good portion of my line in after every cast and having lesser mending control for the simplicity and quick success it has brought. Some may snub their nose at Skagit...., but it doesn't matter to me. It's easy and works.

I'll leave with this analogy that I heard that I think holds true. There are few people in this world that can be pros at multiple sports. Deion Sanders and Bo Jackson come to mind. It's a rarity..... the same holds true w/ Spey/Skagit/Scandi.

There's another thing called muscle memory. Repetition in motion makes us good at anything. Guitar, golf, even casting. Most of us will never be scratch golfers, concert pianists and 95% free throw shooters. We don't have time in our lives or the inate skill to perfect and practice these motions and eventually create the muscle memory required to be proficient with multiple sports/talents in our lifetime.

I just think flip flopping from one casting style and line to another is not easy and creates bad habits and rust that are very hard to knock off. I'd suggest taking a lesson, pick one style, perfect it, and stick with it.

That's what I do and why. I hope it helps.

ft09
 

randyflycaster

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52' head on a 12'6" rod? I don't think so, in spite of what others say. Maybe you can make it work, but it will not be very efficient casting. For a 52' head I would want at least a 14' foot rod.

I just bought a Meiser 15'6" trout/spey rod. I bought a 49' head Ballistic Vector line.

When casting long-belly lines the great casters are using long, at least 17', rods. I don't have to wonder why.

Sorry if I sound sarcastic, but I am a firm believer that the longer the belly the longer the rod.

Randy
 

Ard

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Randy makes a really important point and I'll second his opinion. Among other aspects of the original post / questions I neglected to mention is that the 52' head on the 12'6" rod could be an issue. In the hands of an experienced caster things will work out but perhaps a line more in the 37 - 40 foot length would make your introduction easier.

Although I have many lines the ones I use the most are what Steve Godshall calls his Super Scandi lines. These are a 45 foot head with 100 feet of vinyl coated level line behind the head. With these I've found a sweet spot which allows for relaxed casting like a longer line but with short head performance when coupled with rods 13'6" up to 15 foot. With a 15 foot rod the Super Scandi is very much like a short hear line I'd guess. And while I'm typing again I would like to say that I hope I haven't said anything which has offended anyone in this discussion.
 

fredaevans

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I too am a fan of Steve's lines; all are custom built for a specific rod, and to a large degree, how/where you fish.

His lines won't cost you a penny more (that I remember) than something 'off the shelf.' With one possible exception (a little used rod) Steve built all of my spey lines.

fae
 

Ard

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I knew you would spot that post Fred :) Until I visited the shop three years ago (and you if you recall) I didn't have any of them (the lines). I was so impressed with the attention he and the others afforded to me that I took one that he made for my 15' 7 weight Winston home with me and then ordered 4 more for other rods and reels. Of course he could whip me up a 55 foot line or anything I ask for but I've became a Super Scandi groupie of sorts.
 

steeleman

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Thanks for all the information. I have no intention of indicator fishing with my spey rod. Almost all my fly fishing has been for Atlantic Salmon in Quebec, Labrador and Newfoundland using floating line and classic Atlantic salmon flies. It is my hope to learn to spey cast for Atlantics, steelhead in the streams of Western New York and possibly Pacific salmon in Alaska. Several response suggested that a 52' mid-belly head was hard to cast with a 12'6" rod and that a Skagit head would be easier to learn because of its shorter head (approximately 30'). Since all the grain weight is in the first 30' of line, why is casting 30' of Skagit or Sandi different from casting 30' of mid-belly line? Can't I learn to cast as well with just 30' of mid-belly as I can with 30 ' of Skagit or Scandi?

Thanks,
Steelman
 

dillon

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LONG BELLY SPEY

This fall i have been using the Cortland spey 7wt long belly line with my 12' 9" 7wt Beulah Onyx. I used the cortland 7wt. mid belly with my 12' 6" 6/7 wt Winston. The lines are a pleasure to cast. i also like the Airflo Delta II spey line. As I said in my initial post I fish skagit heads when using a sink tip for sunk fly presentation.

I don't get all caught up in head length. I haven't met a line i can't cast. With good instruction and practice It shouldn't take long to be laying it out there. I'd suggest starting with the one you have and go from there. The description said it's a good all around line too.
 
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huronfly

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Thanks for all the information. I have no intention of indicator fishing with my spey rod. Almost all my fly fishing has been for Atlantic Salmon in Quebec, Labrador and Newfoundland using floating line and classic Atlantic salmon flies. It is my hope to learn to spey cast for Atlantics, steelhead in the streams of Western New York and possibly Pacific salmon in Alaska. Several response suggested that a 52' mid-belly head was hard to cast with a 12'6" rod and that a Skagit head would be easier to learn because of its shorter head (approximately 30'). Since all the grain weight is in the first 30' of line, why is casting 30' of Skagit or Sandi different from casting 30' of mid-belly line? Can't I learn to cast as well with just 30' of mid-belly as I can with 30 ' of Skagit or Scandi?

Thanks,
Steelman
I would stay away from Skagit if you are fishing classic flies with a floating line... This is where the scandi or short/midbelly lines would shine. You can always loop on a sinking polyleader or versileader if you want to get down more.

I can also attest to the quality and price of Steve Godshall's lines. If you contact him and tell him your rod, fishing conditions etc., he will make a custom line for your desired purpose. I spoke with him about what I was looking for and he ended up making me an intermediate scandoid(scandi on steroids!) custom made for my rod. I'm in Canada and the price was still comparable to the big name lines being sold here and very high quality.
 

randyflycaster

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You probably could cast with only 30' of mid-belly line outside the rod tip, but it would not be very efficient. Having 22' of belly inside the rod tip will result in a very heavy running line, which will greatly cut into your casting distance, though it will make mending easier, which, IMHO, is important.

(I like a tapered running line like a Dragontail. It's not a great for maximum distance, but it's great for mending and handling.)

Also - and I'm not 100 percent sure of this - good fly lines are designed for specific reasons, so I'm not sure if your line will fully perform with 22' inside the rod tip, though it might. A better option - and again I'm not sure - might be to cut the line and make a 30' shooting head.

As a general rule a Skagit line, without a mow tip, should be about 1.8 to 2X the length of the rod.

I think a shooting head you might be interested in is a hybrid line: a Rage.
With that head you'll be able to cast streamers, as long as they are not too heavy.

If I were to buy a level running line, I would go for a somewhat thick one, like a 30lb Ridge line, but a lot of folks who want maximum distance, are going with mono, or even with 50lb Berkley Big Game.

One of the most interesting, and also frustrating, things about spey casting is matching rods to lines to casting ability. Every rod has a grain window of options.

Yes, Steve Godshall will build any line you want and it won't be that expensive.

Randy
 

Ard

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Your question regarding why casting the front 30 feet of a longer head is any different than casting a 28' short head is a valid point.

The short heads have the entire mass in that 28 feet whereas the longer head has it distributed along the length of the head. You can throw just the front thirty, I do it all the time. It comes down (in a way) to how far do you need or want to cast and what level of control ie., floating belly length do you want to have? I tried to be neutral in describing what I think I know about lines and fishing situations but admittedly I prefer longer lines with integrated level running line behind the heads.

Some posts put forth the idea of looking for instruction, if you were to begin contacting people for such instruction be sure to ask whether they instruct in the use of longer / mid belly lines. If you can find someone who can teach you the ins and outs of casting with the longer belly you may find that it will fit your needs very well.

Thanks for following this and replying :)

Ard
 

Unknownflyman

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The only time I use skagit lines is when I want to cast sink tips otherwise I use a 35 foot scandi head 480 grain and mono polyleaders floating and sinkingfor skaters and classic wet flies.

About the casting, I’m not a pro or anything but the difference between skagit and Spey casting is is mainly timing and adaptation.

I single spey skagit lines and snap T and double spey Scandi lines. Long belly lines I can only single spey

When you hear you can’t, you can. Just have to practice.

Another thing I’ve experienced with my 12’9” spey rod is that a full mid belly is too much work on my rod, I would have to go to 14’ rod or go a size or two up in weight to a 8 or 9weight.
 

kwb

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Without writing a book...

That line is just fine to learn with, but you should consider where you are fishing...

More specifically, how much back-cast room you will have...

It will fish your Salmon flies just fine and that line is very easily manageable with a 12'6" rod...

The only deterrent would be if you have little to no back-cast room, you may want to try a floating scandi head like the SA UST Short... The longer line requires a larger d-loop and thus, more room behind you is required to cast...
 
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