single hand skagit setup for extremely large flies- skagit experts please advise

[codfather]

hi, this is my first post here. i'm from Queensland in Australia and i want to setup a skagit line on my redington crosswater 9' 8wt single single hand rod.

i want to primarily target murray cod with this setup. they are a freshwater ambush predator which can grow very large (40+lbs). cod fly fishing involves casting LARGE, heavy, wind resistant flies. with a mix of surface and sinking flies. big foam poppers and surface types, large bead headed deceivers and intruder types and large terrestrial offerings like rat, duckling, water lizard imitations.

i have been overhead casting these with a weight forward taper 10wt line but there are two major problems with this-
1- the weight forward taper is useless for attempting to roll/spey cast with.
2- because of this i'm limited to overhead casting which comes with serious limitations in places that are fishable because of the required backcasting room. alot of my fishing is walking rivers and streams where backcasting room is non existent. i don't particularly have to cast very far, mostly inside 60ft.

i also have the rio single hand spey line which is great for smaller carp and bass flies (think smallmouth bass) but it breaks down with the larger cod flies. this leads me to the skagit setup.

here is a selection of cod flies that i want to be able to skagit cast on my 9' 8wt single hander-

they range from 60-100 grains in weight.

i've been looking at the OPST heads and tips but i'm wondering what weight head and what tip weight and lengths will work to skagit cast these flies. note that the head on the 10wt WF line is 410gr and the head on the 8wt single hand spey line is 300gr.

looking at charts i can't help but feel that the recommendations are too light to work with these flies. how big and heavy are the biggest steelhead flies and how do they compare to cod flies? i can't help but think that the charts are understandably biased towards the type of fishing in north america since that is where the biggest market share is.

i was thinking a 450gr commando head with 12' 132gr 'run' tips and 12' 90gr floating tips for the surface flies. am i close or way out of the ball park? would i be better off with 10' tips? hit me with your suggested setup combo's.

i've been in contact with OPST and they have made some recommendations but this request was 'out of the box' for them. often i find that out of the box problems require out of the box solutions. i'm hoping to draw on advice from those who are more experienced with this stuff so i can make a more informed decision. skagit casting here in australia seems to be a little known topic and doing it for cod is almost unheard of which leaves me no experience to draw from here. the default cod setup seems to be an aggressive weight forward taper line and chuck and duck. the rio outbound short seems to get alot of mention. however i see skagit, if it works, as gamechanger for cod fly fishing because of the ability to cast big flies with little to no backcast room which would revolutionize the game for fisherman that are land based and fish tight areas.

here's the lastest cod i caught to give you and idea of the target fish. not so much a typical area where i mention backcasting room to be a problem though. this was on my local lake out of a canoe.


thanks for any help.

 

[flav]

I would follow the OPST recommendation of a 300 or 325 grain commando for an 8 weight single hander and 10 foot T-8 or T-11 tips. It's not how many grains these super short heads weigh, it's how many grains per foot they are that moves heavy flies.
And those flies don't look too big to me. The streamers guys use for pike and muskies are bigger than those, some by a lot. I think an 8 weight commando might cast them just fine.

 

[codfather]

ok maybe i was over cooking it. i see your point in the grains per foot comment.
sounds encouraging thanks flav

 

[ia_trouter]

Hopefully you'll get better feedback from somebody with experience with your exact equipment, but here's my two cents in the meantime after playing with my 7-9WT rods....

Those flies are common LM Bass size. Big but not huge flies. I believe a standard 8WT line is somewhere around 230grain. A 300-325GR line with a T tip could easily bend most any 8WT SH to the butt. The OPST heads are so short that you'll have most or all of the total head/tip weight in play all the time.

And put a switch rod on your wish list for those big boys. If all you usually do is from a canoe then maybe not.

 

[ddb]

A modest suggestion. Look into musky patterns and select for those tied with synthetic materials that do not absorb water. You can get large profile, water shedding, light flies with fluid, fish, attracting action in the water that will cast with little effort all day and pose less risk of getting buried in your neck on the forward cast.

ddb

 

[flytie09]

I'll start out by saying that I am far from an expert with single hand skagit lines. I am simply offering my opinion based on my experience to date with them.

With any setup....you start with your fly. These tables from OPST are not biased towards trout or NA species.
It is simply a suggested starting point for a rods capability. What line will maximize the load for any given rod to provide the force and momentum to cast a certain fly. A properly tuned single hand Skagit setup should work well.

I could see that Musky flies being very similar to those used for Murray Cod. Big, heavy and tough to cast.

For your 9' 8 WT, I would say you could upsize the OPST Commando head to 375 grains and go with a 5'-10' T-Tip. But you would be deviating slightly from the recommendations by manufacturer. Rio sells T sink tip material in 30 foot coils and you can custom make your own lengths. You might have to play around.

Commando lines do require a tip for them to work. OPST suggests you use theirs of course, but T tips, Z-tips or even Polyleaders will do the job. Mono leaders won't.

Now......a rod can only take so much flex and stress. You can use a 475 grain Commando on your 8 WT and turn over the heaviest of flies...but you might stress the rod to the limit and risk breaking it. You simply might need a 10 or 12 WT single hander w/ higher grain WT line to chuck your biggest/heaviest flies. Or as others suggest....a switch rod.

I listened to a couple of episodes from April Vokey's Anchored podcast where she discusses the Murray Cod. Sounds like a great species to target on the fly.

Good luck. Thanks for sharing.

 

[huronfly]

I cast bass and pike flies close to that size with a 4 weight and 200 grain OPST head, so whichever grain you choose for your 8 weight (300-375), I'm sure will have no trouble turning over those flies. My only advice would be stick to tips 10' or less with the singlehanded rod, if you get a switch or spey then a 12 or 15' tip may match better, it just makes for an easier casting stroke. Looks like a heluva fish to catch on an 8 weight! If you are having trouble turning the flies over, I would recommend shortening your tip and increasing the density of tip. T17 can turnover much larger flies than T8...

 

[codfather]

thanks heaps for the replies guys. certainly some good advice there.

both RIO and OPST replied to my emails.

RIO suggested their intouch skagit trout spey shooting head in 350gr (17') and 10' MOW tips.

OPST suggested 300gr head with a max of 325gr head (15') and 7.5' tips.

 

[The op]

Welcome fellow aussie.

300 grain commando smooth,you want intergrated running line,,you dont wanna go hand to hand with old mate while your trying to holding onto mono.

5 and 7.5 ft floating and intermediate tips.

Order some T maierial and cut to different lengths if you wanna get deep.

First though,,find out what core strengths they use in commando heads,,id say youl be needing atleast 50lbs,same goes with the tips.

 

[The op]

Heres a thought that ive never looked into.

Contact a furled leader maker and get them to make you some custom furled mono and fluoro leaders(tips)to suit your large fly size and strenghth needs.

Try cutthroat leaders.

Big Bug Leaders | Cutthroat Leader

A heavy duty one of these would be sweet.

 

[codfather]

First though,,find out what core strengths they use in commando heads,,id say youl be needing atleast 50lbs,same goes with the tips.

funny you mention that. i did notice that the heaviest SHS floating tips from OPST are 26lb test. that means that the tip has every chance of breaking before the tippet. not good! can't find any breaking strength info for anything really.

 

[The op]

funny you mention that. i did notice that the heaviest SHS floating tips from OPST are 26lb test. that means that the tip has every chance of breaking before the leader. not good. can't find any breaking strength info for anything really.

Yes,breaking strain is also of priority.

See my previous post,i think that is the answer.

 

[codfather]

why is it so hard?? no info anywhere on test strengths of heads or tips.

looks like T-8, T-11 material is 20lb test and T-14, T-17 is 30lb test.

 

[flytie09]

Polyleaders have a 24 lb core. You don't think that's enough? How crazy are these things?

 

[codfather]

ummm....you have to stop this from going back into the log jam or rocks that it came out of.
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...fnxBZUF1MComZbF1_qPnF8P-xPsvt2nUY_EH2t-0n67_x

they have a set of raspy teeth that can quickly wear through a leader. 30-40lb leader is common. that leaves the weakest point in the tip somewhere. no doubt the rear loop of the tip would break so you lose the whole expensive tip.

but i doubt there are any skagit heads and tips that go heavier than the 25lb that seems to common. might just be a case of try it and see.