i have a guide booked this weekend so i have vowed to practice every day this week to get un-rusty and get the most out of the trip. i was practicing today and noticed i was throwing tailing loops over and over. ive been trying to concentrate on keeping my elbow in close to my body and not using as much wrist which is helping. it seems like the harder i double haul, the worse the cast is though. however, some of my casts are perfect, i just cant seem to repeat exactly what i did on that perfect cast the next time. any help or ideas of what could be wrong? ive had instructors tell me before that tailing loops are caused by too much power applied at the wrong time. am i not waiting long enough before i haul on the forward cast? im throwing an 8 wt loomis crosscurrent with #8 SA redfish line. wind was pretty stiff today but i was changing directions to practice with wind from all sides and stuff.
throwing tailing loops like crazy
- Thread starter rjackh
- Start date
gt05254
Well-known member
Sounds like you're working too hard. "the harder I double haul"...double hauling is fairly effortless...you don't need to be yanking incredibly on the line. You need to be timing your pull on each aspect of the cast. A suggestion...slow down in practice. When you get a cast that gets it, stop and think about what you did on that cast to make it right. don't just keep flailing away out there. Stop and analyze each cast. What went right, what went wrong? Keeping your elbow in close to your body may not be the best thing when casting bigger line weights, especially into the wind.
The Loomis Crosscurrent demands really good timing. Again, I'd slow the practice sessions down, and get that timing right.
Gary
The Loomis Crosscurrent demands really good timing. Again, I'd slow the practice sessions down, and get that timing right.
Gary
Davo
Well-known member
I'd have to agree with GT. Also you may be putting a little extra oomph into the forecast when you release the line. this results on overflexing the rod causing your tailing loop. Just relax and let the rod do its thing.
Walter1023
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Good advice from all.....and if its any comfort just remember that everyone gets tailing loops at some time. My favorite Lefty Kreh line was that there are only 2 kinds of people that never get tailing loops: 1) People that don't flyfish...and 2) Liars.
wjc
Well-known member
Slow down your casting stroke and don't start rotating the rod until your hand is well in front of you. Don't start the haul until the very end of the cast.
BigCliff
Well-known member
Practice being smooth.
Tailing loops are most commonly caused by "goosing" your cast: applying too much power too early in your casting stroke. (kinda like accelerating out of a turn on a wet street with a pickup and spinning the wheels- lots of muscle and motion is used, but wasted)
Start out practicing your cast without the haul.
Gradually accelerate through the casting stroke so that you're smoothly bending the rod more deeply up until your stop.
Then, add a small haul in at the end of your casting stroke to deepen the bend in the rod. Gradually increase the force applied to your haul, and when it quits improving your cast, back off.
Tailing loops are most commonly caused by "goosing" your cast: applying too much power too early in your casting stroke. (kinda like accelerating out of a turn on a wet street with a pickup and spinning the wheels- lots of muscle and motion is used, but wasted)
Start out practicing your cast without the haul.
Gradually accelerate through the casting stroke so that you're smoothly bending the rod more deeply up until your stop.
Then, add a small haul in at the end of your casting stroke to deepen the bend in the rod. Gradually increase the force applied to your haul, and when it quits improving your cast, back off.
randyflycaster
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Also, make sure that you don't end your downward haul too late: after you stop your casting stroke.
Randy
Randy
hanks for the tips guys. i practiced again yesterday while concentrating on being as smooth as possible and it really helped a lot. i think my main problem was that i was trying to muscle it way too much. i know this is off topic for this thread, but my next issue now is accuracy. anyone have tips to improve accuracy? one thing i noticed yesterday was the more overhanded i casted (that is the less side arm i casted) the more accurate i was. i felt like my loops were better when doing this too. this a coincidence or good form?
wjc
Well-known member
It is not coincidence. When casting directly overhead, you eliminate all lateral miscalculations. For instance if your trajectory is a little off, your distance may be a little short or long, but it will be in a straight line to your target.
If casting on a 45 degree angle, distance will also be off, you will not be in a straight line to the target either. You will miss either right or left as well.
Basically,wiith direct overhead casting you have "removed" half the possibility for error. That is an oversimplification of course.
Cheers,
Jim
BigCliff
Well-known member
Well, when casting on a more vertical plane, its generally easier to be accurate because the turnover is more in line horizontally with the direction of the cast.
With a more sidearm angle, the casts turns over in a sweep that's more parallel with the water's surface, and where the fly comes to rest is a bit harder to control.
When casting sidearm, its possible to give the fly a vertical turnover, but you have to add in what's commonly known as a curve cast. When performed on the vertical plane, I've also heard this one titled a "tough right hook". When tilted 90 degrees, it allows you to send a cast under overhanging brush or limbs, and then kick over vertically at the last minute to help it land right where you wanted.
Shortly before you stop on your forward stroke, roll your thumb slightly to the inside. In other words, after you've had your palm facing up while casting, finish the stroke by rolling your thumb up. Its tricky, and takes practice for sure, but its the best weapon I've got for getting a fly to where the big ones live.
Ed Jaworoski explains it better than I (though he's talking about casting in the vertical plane- Casting Curves | Fade your cast to the right or draw it to the left with these simple steps| 1
With a more sidearm angle, the casts turns over in a sweep that's more parallel with the water's surface, and where the fly comes to rest is a bit harder to control.
When casting sidearm, its possible to give the fly a vertical turnover, but you have to add in what's commonly known as a curve cast. When performed on the vertical plane, I've also heard this one titled a "tough right hook". When tilted 90 degrees, it allows you to send a cast under overhanging brush or limbs, and then kick over vertically at the last minute to help it land right where you wanted.
Shortly before you stop on your forward stroke, roll your thumb slightly to the inside. In other words, after you've had your palm facing up while casting, finish the stroke by rolling your thumb up. Its tricky, and takes practice for sure, but its the best weapon I've got for getting a fly to where the big ones live.
Ed Jaworoski explains it better than I (though he's talking about casting in the vertical plane- Casting Curves | Fade your cast to the right or draw it to the left with these simple steps| 1
Tailing loops most often come from dropping the tip of the rod from its oroginal path on the end of a cast. Stop you cast on the horizontal plane of the end of the cast and dont let the tip move toward the ground (or down at the stop of the forward cast).
BigCliff
Well-known member
I'm afraid this is incorrect.
A tailing loop is caused by a concave path of the rod tip. What you've described adds a convex movement at the end of the cast.
By creating additional tension as the line is unrolling, it could turn a cast with a smooth turnover into a bounce cast that doesn't travel as far, but I see no way it could produce a tailing loop.
Your rods do look very appealing though.
Frank Whiton
Most Senior Member
Hi Everyone,
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U_FnbGfc0I"]Here is a video[/ame] of Lefty talking about tailing loops.
Frank
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3U_FnbGfc0I"]Here is a video[/ame] of Lefty talking about tailing loops.
Frank
wjc
Well-known member
There are a whole lot of reasons for tailing loops but, as Cliff said, dropping the tip of the rod from its oroginal path on the end of a cast is not one of them.
The most common causes result in a concave tip path as Cliff said. In order to HAVE a concave tip path, the rod tip must RISE at the end of the casting arc.
The most common causes of concave tip paths vary with the experience of the caster. For very experienced surf casters, for instance, the most common cause is too high a trajectory backcast (to get above the beach behind them) combined with too high a trajectory forward cast (to get the distance they need to reach fish). Most surf casters using full length lines are pushing the "180 degree rule" envelope with every cast. That's why most use shooting heads.
But for casters who are just rusty, but experienced, it is usually too early an application of force either with rod rotation or the haul or both - when going for more distance. They "hit" the cast too early in the stroke and cannot continue acceleratinig fast enough to prevent the rod from unloading too soon. So the rod begins to "unload" (straighten) while they are still rotating the rod through the cast.
This causes the concave tip path Cliff was talking about. And this is likely what the original poster was doing. If you start slow and accelerate the rotation through the cast, hauling late in the stroke, this will not happen. On distance casts, the rod tip will deflect downward to such a degree that it will nearly hit the ground in a 170 degree cast, as shown in the pic below of a 1950's world distance champion caster. He is not setting the hook there, he has just released the line on his forward presentation cast.
Cheers,
Jim
The most common causes result in a concave tip path as Cliff said. In order to HAVE a concave tip path, the rod tip must RISE at the end of the casting arc.
The most common causes of concave tip paths vary with the experience of the caster. For very experienced surf casters, for instance, the most common cause is too high a trajectory backcast (to get above the beach behind them) combined with too high a trajectory forward cast (to get the distance they need to reach fish). Most surf casters using full length lines are pushing the "180 degree rule" envelope with every cast. That's why most use shooting heads.
But for casters who are just rusty, but experienced, it is usually too early an application of force either with rod rotation or the haul or both - when going for more distance. They "hit" the cast too early in the stroke and cannot continue acceleratinig fast enough to prevent the rod from unloading too soon. So the rod begins to "unload" (straighten) while they are still rotating the rod through the cast.
This causes the concave tip path Cliff was talking about. And this is likely what the original poster was doing. If you start slow and accelerate the rotation through the cast, hauling late in the stroke, this will not happen. On distance casts, the rod tip will deflect downward to such a degree that it will nearly hit the ground in a 170 degree cast, as shown in the pic below of a 1950's world distance champion caster. He is not setting the hook there, he has just released the line on his forward presentation cast.
Cheers,
Jim
Appears as though lefty is talking about the tip tailing down...no?
my statement "Stop you cast on the horizontal plane of the end of the cast and dont let the tip move toward the ground (or down at the stop of the forward cast)."
maybe my wording isnt quite on.....
---------- Post added at 07:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:34 PM ----------
Tailing Loops - description and cure
"If the tip dips under the SLP (straight line path) then you will throw a Tailing Loop."
wjc
Well-known member
I have no idea what Lefty is talking about other than moving the rod hand in a horizontal position.
If you look at the video you will see that when he demonstrated throwing a tailing loop himself, he stopped the rod much higher after exerting much more force than in any of his other casts which did not tail. This caused the rod tip to RISE above the straight line tip path at the end of the cast.
Look at the position of the rod tip when he is demonstrating how to cast WITHOUT tailing loops. It is perfectly horizintal to the ground. He may simply have gotten his working backwards in that video, I don't know.
One thing for certain, he does NOT shock the rod when NOT throwing tailing loops and he DOES stop the rod tip lower.
Cheers,
Jim
If you look at the video you will see that when he demonstrated throwing a tailing loop himself, he stopped the rod much higher after exerting much more force than in any of his other casts which did not tail. This caused the rod tip to RISE above the straight line tip path at the end of the cast.
Look at the position of the rod tip when he is demonstrating how to cast WITHOUT tailing loops. It is perfectly horizintal to the ground. He may simply have gotten his working backwards in that video, I don't know.
One thing for certain, he does NOT shock the rod when NOT throwing tailing loops and he DOES stop the rod tip lower.
Cheers,
Jim
swirlchaser
Well-known member
Zero muscle involved in casting a fly rod. I've been a surfcaster since I was a toddler. I've been flyfishing for about 8 years now and I still fight the urge to muscle my casts. As far as accuracy goes, when I get some I'll let you know where I found it. :faint:
BigCliff
Well-known member
Here's an illustration of what they're describing-
See what I'm referring to by "concave path of the rod tip"?
The "tail" in "tailing loop" refers to the shape of the loop, not what is done with the rod after the forward cast is complete.
Any small movement made with the rod after the stop on the forward cast will not affect how the loop unrolls. A "reach cast" will reposition the line nearer the rod tip, but it will not affect how the loop unrolls. What you originally described is functionally a "reach cast" but the reach is on the vertical plane rather than the traditional horizontal plane.
First cast seen is a reach cast-
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