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  1. #31
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Metuchen, N.J.

    Default Re: Should I be able to cast my 3wt as far as my 5wt?

    All of the above... Going to a different rod sets up a whole different set of dynamics. You have to adjust your stroke to the rod action. The video is a great idea. .Try putting a little dot of fluorescent tape or such on the rod tip
    ( not enough to change the action) so you can easily follow the rod tip in the video. i found that that helps. a shorter rod might limit your cast distance but remember Lefty can cast 50+ ft from his hand so I think technique has a lot to do with it. Not saying you have to cast like Lefty but he just shows what is possible if you get beyond good to that great status..........
    Tell Justin about the Allen line. He is great on customer satisfaction, & should take care of you especially as you say it was cut from the box.
    To me double hauling is like patting my head & rubbing my belly. Unless I'm having a good day I don't bother trying. Most of the time I don't need to do it. The only time I really try is casting in to the wind with a short line.
    Remember to fill in the dash----

  2. #32

    Default Re: Should I be able to cast my 3wt as far as my 5wt?

    Quote Originally Posted by FISHN50 View Post
    ............ but remember Lefty can cast 50+ ft from his hand so I think technique has a lot to do with it. Not saying you have to cast like Lefty but he just shows what is possible if you get beyond good to that great status.........
    ?????? How is it even possible to "cast" with no rod? If I leave the fly line on the spool I can chuck it, box and all across the Rapahannock like George Washington, but that isn't casting. I don't understand, maybe I'd have to see what you are talking about LOL.

    For those who don't know the "story", George could toss stones across the Rapahannock river and awed everyone of his day; he was quite an athlete, not to mention a good 7" taller than the average man of his day. That's roughly the equivalent of a Major League baseball player throwing from deep center field to home plate on the fly. He was also an excellent dancer, and was pretty good on a horse as well.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Should I be able to cast my 3wt as far as my 5wt?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyfisher117 View Post
    The Orvis guy mentions the little flick of the wrist, is this the same power snap that Joan Wulff is referring to? I was told that you dont want to use any wrist but while testing the new line I actually experimented and tried doing a little "snap" thing and it seemed to help, I dont know how to explain what I was doing, kind of like I had a drop of water on the end of the rod and I was trying to flick off with very minimal movement after the very short flick i stopped to wait for the line to straighten out. It seemed to help with the front cast but I couldn't get it to do anything with the rear cast so I quit.

    The power snap, flick, etc are different names for the increasing acceleration of the rod at the end of the stroke. The other explanations are flicking an apple off the end of a stick or the one I like is to flick paint off the the end of a paintbrush. To do either of these things, you need a rapid acceleration terminating in a hard stop. Without both the acceleration and the stop, you will not get paint to flick off of a paint brush. Stand in front of a wall and try to flick water off of a paint brush so that it lands at forehead level on the wall. You need to flick or snap the brush.

    To work on your backcast, stand with your back to the wall and try to flick water on it on the wall above head level. This will give you a high backcast.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyfisher117 View Post
    Also will grass work just as well as water to practice? I like the run off pond because its right by the house and I can get the line wet, I dont know if it does but Ive always felt I can cast better with more ease on the water becasue its getting on the guides and such. I might have to go to the football field and try casting a bit. Then I can also get a more accurate reading of how far im actually casting.

    Grass is bad for fly line. If you are going to cast on grass, use an old fly line that you won't use to fish with.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyfisher117 View Post

    #2: How does one add more energy without forcing the rod? Is this where I need my Hauls? And is it more line that is added longer the stroke?

    As Joan Wulff shows you can gain energy by lengthening the the stroke and by faster acceleration. Longer casts mean longer strokes. But this only gets you so far as Joan Wullf shows. You need to double haul.

    Your stroke path looks pretty good but it lacks that "oomph" at the end before the stop. I also see inefficiencies (rod creep) in your stroke. We cannot see the line in the video so we cannot see the shape of the loop OR, just as importantly, the waves and slack in the arialized line.

    When you have waves, droops, or waves in your fly line during the cast, some of your rod stroke goes to remove this slack. All the slack must be gone before the rod tip can actually pull on the end of the fly line to load the rod. Part of the reason that the double haul works is because the haul both removes the slack and adds acceleration to the line. The haul, in effect, adds to the rod stroke length.

    Look closely at the video at the start of each forward and back cast. You consistently have some rod creep on your forward cast. You bring your hand forward a few inches before actually starting your forward casting stroke. You have just a bit of backward creep on your backcast as well.

    Rod creep is when your timing is off and you begin moving the fly rod a bit before the cast actually starts. It's effect is to shorten the effective stroke path. It is as if you took your golf club back to hit but then lowered the head a bit before you actually begin the stroke. You give up stroke length.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyfisher117 View Post

    #3: Ahh theres one of my bad habits I KNOW I do quite often, never had anyone tell me it was bad, guess that explains why I can never waterload much line without it either trying to all pile up in my face or just flop around like a fish out of water. Ill for sure be trying this next time Im at the water.

    Never let go of the line.

    Lower the rod tip. After the cast, take the line that is in your left hand and put it under the index finger of your right rod hand. Now strip the line in from behind your rod hand. Your right hand is holding the line against the rod cork so it cannot slip back outside the rod guides. Once the line is straight, you can begin the next cast from a low rod tip position.

    Quote Originally Posted by flyfisher117 View Post

    #4: My biggest problem with the double haul, they also say this in the videos but its like trying to pat my head and rub my belly. I cant get the rhythm down without focusing really hard, I can usually get it going back but when I go forward I always seem to forget to get my line hand to go back up and "reset" getting ready to go backwards again. By the time I remember its too late the line is either straight and falling down or I've started another back cast. What would be a good line length past the rod tip to practice getting the rhythm down?
    The easiest way is to pantomime and use the "down-up" of Mel Krieger. Practice without the fly rod. Buildup your muscle memory. Think "down-up".

    You can also start with a single haul, that is the front half of a double haul. After you pick up the the line for the back cast, you can add the "down up" haul to add a bit more power to the back cast.
    Last edited by silver creek; 05-09-2012 at 06:21 PM.


    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  4. #34

    Default Re: Should I be able to cast my 3wt as far as my 5wt?

    I've been thinking about how I could better illustrate and explain that wrist flick or power snap to you. It is the final acceleration of the fly rod. To be more precise, it is the the rapid rotation of the fly rod butt and the rod tip just before the stop. By flicking the wrist to a hard stop, you rotate the rod butt, which moves the rod tip through an arc.

    There is a way to show this on a graph and to demonstrate two different rates of rod butt rotation or power snap. Some of you are familiar with the Casting Analyzer.

    Explanation of the casting analyzer graph is below. The power snap is the final acceleration phase of the graph below.

    Jason's Borger has posted the difference between a standard overhead cast and a roll cast in terms of rod "butt" rotation. Read the comment between Jason and I below the article:

    Graph from Jason's Blog, the top graph is the standard cast and the bottom is the roll cast.:

    The difference between the two graphs is that the final (acceleration) rod loading for a roll cast (lower graph) must occur over a shorter time and have a higher peak. It requires more energy to make a roll cast because part of the energy is used to both elevate the line and to break the line free of surface tension.

    The standard casting instruction for the roll cast has been that it is just the same as the a regular forward cast. We can see that that is not quite correct. If you look at the white side of the graph, the initial front part of the curve (from about 37 to 55 ms) is identical UNTIL the final steep acceleration from 55 to 58 ms. So the final application of power is more sudden and forceful than an in the air cast.

    The other thing to notice is that even though the final acceleration is more sudden and rapid, it is still SMOOTH. There are no dips in the acceleration line.

    So a roll cast requires a faster rod rotation over a shorter time. It requires a harder power snap. This is what I meant when I said that your casting stroke lacked "oomph".


    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    SE, Idaho
    Blog Entries

    Default Re: Should I be able to cast my 3wt as far as my 5wt?

    Silver Creek that makes perfect sense about the power snap, I was experimenting with that but ill give it another go.

    Didnt make it up to the field today to practice (had to go do a little spin fishing to pattern some smallies), if grass isnt good where would be the best place? I tried the run off pond but it now has a very thin layer of muck and slime that is no fun to cast in. I would take it down to my bass pond but it has a 4 foot bank around it and on back casts there are a ton of rocks that I dont want to be whipping.

    I will get out and try all of this in a week or two and also see if my buddies video camera will do a better job of filming. Ill report back when I can.

    Thanks for the help all!
    "A good cast is like a good whiskey- It's smooth and hits the spot" -Anonymous fly fishing guide

  6. #36

    Default Re: Should I be able to cast my 3wt as far as my 5wt?

    Grass is better than concrete but water is what fly lines were made to cast on.

    The surface of a fly line is pliable and soft. If you have ever gotten a grass cut, you know that if you slide a blade of grass at the right angle it will slice a grove into you skin. The same thing happens with the surface of a fly line. It gets micro cuts on the surface and these cuts can gather small particles of dust and even without dirt, it creates more friction on the rod guides.

    If you want to practice on grass, use an old fly line.


    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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