Double Haul.... Won't.....

[navycop10]

New to the forum, here! Read almost every thread about casting, and can't find anyone with a similar issue. I am not exactly new to the sport, but by no means a great caster.

When I use my 8ft 6wt that I have had for 12 years, I seem to do a pretty decent job. I can double haul an accurate cast out to just over 75 feet, and feel really good and relaxed in the process. The loops are nothing to brag about, but it works. This past father's day, my wife got me a brand new 9ft 6wt beautiful rod with large arbor reel. A lot fancier and more expensive than my 12 year old outfit.

So out on the water, waving this expensive stick in the air trying to trick a few fish into an unexpected workout, and I see a monster about 40 feet away. I assume the position and get ready to swirl this 9ft contraption like a bureaucrat's olive sword in a martini and launch a beautiful cast to drop my woolly bugger a few feet off his nose... I wiggle about 20 or 25 feet of line out and false cast to get my game on, it feels right, I strip out some more line, and start my double haul to reach him, when my rod won't shoot the line back in my back cast. I pick the line up off the water, a nice smooth back cast, haul some line down to about my waist, as I have done a thousand times, stop the rod, move my hand back up, and I notice the line between my hand and the rod has just gone slack. None was shot out on the back cast so that I can haul on my front cast. I ended up having to haul to my chest on the back, then to my waist on the front cast. Line would shoot out beautifully and form great loops all the way to my target. But alas, unlike my old out fit, this one will not take up my slack in the double haul.

Some differences in the rods:
I have not mastered this art-form, nor it's terminology, so I will just describe.

My old rod, even on the long 75+ foot casts will only bend in the top 1/3 or so. The line slides through the guides both fore and aft like butter, the rod tip will give a nice flick, then bounce a little causing the line to be a touch wavy, but nothing that can't be dealt with. The casts are always a touch more open, and not pretty but very effective and quiet.

My new rod, even on short casts, seems to bend all the way down to the cork. There is noise as the lines goes through the guides, and the fly and line through the air seem to scream. I get constant twists and knots in the tippet even when keeping false casting and wind knots to a minimum. The plus of this new rod, is that when I stop it, the dang thing stops. It does not bounce, wiggle, or twitch. It flicks that line over the top and out like lightning and it sits bloody still.

Am I doing something wrong with this obviously new and different type of rod that I am not used too, or is there something wrong with the rod it'self. The latter I cannot fathom as it shoots line on the forward cast beautifully, it's getting it there is the hard part. And why all of the sudden, all the noise and twists?

Thank you all in advance for your help and guidance. Tight lines, my friends.

 

[jpbfly]

:welcomean navycop....:secret:I usually fish only on sight ...so I never doublehaul....hopefully other members will answer your question

 

[swirlchaser]

From reading your post it sounds like your new rod has a much different action than your previous rod. I expected your newer rod to be a faster action since that seems to be the trend these days but if the new rod flexes all the way to the butt I'm guessing it's a slower action than the old rod. In any case, I would first concentrate on casting the new rod properly. The double haul is simply an enhancement to your cast. Your now using a rod that is a foot longer and with modern (doesn't mean better...) technology. I would concentrate on a basic cast to get your timing adjusted to the new rod. Throw the double haul in later once you have your timing adjusted.

 

[navycop10]

JPB. I'm a sight only fisherman as well. Love to see what I am going for.

Swirlchaser,

Thanks for the tip! I was hoping it was something I was doing wrong, and not something wrong with my new rod. Back to basics always seems to be the right choice, even for a stubborn ol' man like myself.

Any particular thing I need to do different, in addition to practice the basics and back off on the power and distance quite a bit? My old rod is the only fly rod I have ever used, so going from the fast action, long shot rod to, what appears to be extremely slow, short distance though accurate, has me at a bit of a loss. And the noise, I have never heard this screaming of the fly and line before. Which I would not expect from slower line speeds. It's nice to know I have two very different style rods now, even though the same wt, as they both appear to have their advantages.

 

[silver creek]

Sounds like a problem with:

1.Your stroke path and

2.The timing and direction of pull of the double haul

Your stroke path over the years has become grooved for the faster fly rod. A faster fly rod bends less, which means it shortens less for a given energy input. It maintains the length from the rod tip to your hand.

In the illustration below, notice that the rod tip approaches the casting hand as the rod bends. To compensate, the stoke path is convex with the convexity of the stroke path compensating for the rod shortening.

Now imagine a softer rod bending more but the stroke path staying the same. The stroke path fails to compensate for the rod bend and you get a concave rod tip path, which leads to a tailing loop.

So the stroke path that you are used to results in a concave rod tip path which results in a tailing loop.

Now you add a haul, which causes an even greater dip in the rod tip and causes a worse tailing loop.

I think the zing, zing, you are hearing is because the your haul is at a steep angle to the position of the of the stripping guide. The direction of pull should be along the axis of the rod guides, so the fly line is not pulled around the the stripping guide but along the stripping guide. Look at the illustration below and not that the direction of pull is along the rod axis so the fly line is not pulled around the 1st stripping guide.

Now view the video below and see that the direction of pull is changes to accommodate the rod position of the backcast haul and the forward cast haul.

[ame=http://youtu.be/d8idd4kgXY4]Ask a Fly-Fishing Instructor VII: The Double Haul - YouTube[/ame]

You are not going to like my recommendation. If I am correct, I would trade the rod for a faster action rod. I think you would be much happier.

 

[navycop10]

Silver,

I think you hit the nail on the head. Especially with the video. It would appear that I have been hauling way too early. Which apparently was okay on my stiffer old rod, but a habit I need to break on this new one.

Though the noise I still can't understand. It's similar to a scratching as it goes through the guides. All of them. And the line whistles through the air over my head. Perhaps bad line? To big of a fly or too small of a tippet ratio?

I hate to trade this rod in, but I sure understand where you are coming from. And I might have to put it in the closet for a later day or for my son to enjoy, and get a new fast action.

 

[siskiyoublues]

is it a textured line? My sharkskin line whistles as it shoots through the guides.

 

[navycop10]

is it a textured line? My sharkskin line whistles as it shoots through the guides.

I don't believe so, it is a general use WFF 6wt. It came on the reel, as it was an "outfit" package. It doesn't feel different through my fingers than other lines I have used.

 

[silver creek]

It's new rod but I would still check every one of the line guides to make sure one of them has not been nicked.

Another possibility is that some rods do not have a smooth surface but still have the pressure ridges from the curing wraps. This is true in some of the cheaper rods. They do not go to the expense of sanding and coating the rod. Line rubbing against these ridges could cause a zinging sound during line shoot.

I would also treat the line with a line dressing to see if that helps. I'm at a loss to explain the noise otherwise.

 

[swirlchaser]

JPB. I'm a sight only fisherman as well. Love to see what I am going for.

Swirlchaser,

Thanks for the tip! I was hoping it was something I was doing wrong, and not something wrong with my new rod. Back to basics always seems to be the right choice, even for a stubborn ol' man like myself.

Any particular thing I need to do different, in addition to practice the basics and back off on the power and distance quite a bit? My old rod is the only fly rod I have ever used, so going from the fast action, long shot rod to, what appears to be extremely slow, short distance though accurate, has me at a bit of a loss. And the noise, I have never heard this screaming of the fly and line before. Which I would not expect from slower line speeds. It's nice to know I have two very different style rods now, even though the same wt, as they both appear to have their advantages.

Under most situations you will get the same distance from a slower action rod. Do everything you did with your previous rod, just do it slower. You will also get a softer presentation with a slower action rod.

By the way, we're you ever stationed at Ft. Wadsworth in Staten Island, NY? I took a salt shot to the thigh from a Navy cop as a teenager while I was fishing/trespassing. Your screen name brought back a painfully memory, lol.:wow:

 

[navycop10]

It's new rod but I would still check every one of the line guides to make sure one of them has not been nicked.

Another possibility is that some rods do not have a smooth surface but still have the pressure ridges from the curing wraps. This is true in some of the cheaper rods. They do not go to the expense of sanding and coating the rod. Line rubbing against these ridges could cause a zinging sound during line shoot.

I would also treat the line with a line dressing to see if that helps. I'm at a loss to explain the noise otherwise.

The rod looks good, as do the guides. But on closer inspection, I am starting to think it could be the line. Although new, it is a generic stock line, and doesn't seem of top quality. I will upgrade the line to a Rio and see what that does.

As long as it's not damaging the line, spooking the fish, or interfering/causing this problem, I would assume a little noise can be tolerated? Or is every rod/line set up nearly silent as my old gear?

---------- Post added at 02:45 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:37 PM ----------

Under most situations you will get the same distance from a slower action rod. Do everything you did with your previous rod, just do it slower. You will also get a softer presentation with a slower action rod.

As in a rod more suited to sneaking up on carp/bones. So worth putting in the time and effort to learn it seems.

By the way, we're you ever stationed at Ft. Wadsworth in Staten Island, NY? I took a salt shot to the thigh from a Navy cop as a teenager while I was fishing/trespassing. Your screen name brought back a painfully memory, lol.

I was in NY for a total of three hours. Off Duty. I was in Willow Grove PA, or Norfolk VA when I was on shore duty. My time was split between the USS Lamoure County and the USS Enterprise. I hope he didn't hurt ya too bad!

 

[swirlchaser]

When it hit me I laughed at him and ran away. 50yds down the beach the salt started dissolving, I wasn't laughing or running anymore after that. My father had to come pick me up at the fort, he wasn't happy

 

[silver creek]

As long as it's not damaging the line, spooking the fish, or interfering/causing this problem, I would assume a little noise can be tolerated? Or is every rod/line set up nearly silent as my old gear?

Not only won't the noise bother the fish, some of the textured high tech lines like Sharkskin make noise as they are cast.

What we hear as noise with our ears cannot be heard under water because the vibrations in the air are reflected when the hit the water surface. Water is 700 times as dense as air and that density difference does not allow what we would hear as noise to penetrate the water.

What fish do hear is the direct vibrations of us walking on shore or wading that is transmitted directly through the ground and water. They do not hear is so much as "feel" it through their lateral lines.

 

[navycop10]

When it hit me I laughed at him and ran away. 50yds down the beach the salt started dissolving, I wasn't laughing or running anymore after that. My father had to come pick me up at the fort, he wasn't happy

He must have got you from close range, those things didn't work too far out. I think that's why they were mostly gone by the time I got there. We had the BeanBags to play with.

---------- Post added at 07:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:24 PM ----------

Not only won't the noise bother the fish, some of the textured high tech lines like Sharkskin make noise as they are cast.

What we hear as noise with our ears cannot be heard under water because the vibrations in the air are reflected when the hit the water surface. Water is 700 times as dense as air and that density difference does not allow what we would hear as noise to penetrate the water.

What fish do hear is the direct vibrations of us walking on shore or wading that is transmitted directly through the ground and water. They do not hear is so much as "feel" it through their lateral lines.

Is there any way to tell what kind of line exactly I have? As the package was gone, and the description of the product isn't specific online. The line was pre-spooled on the reel, and I have not, nor know how, to make sure it's on right.

So I need not worry so much about the screaming through the air, but the large smack into the water from the near constant "tuck cast" that I seem to cast with this rod? Again, back to basics it seems.

Speaking of basics. Will casting into the yard/grass hurt my line/leader/tippet? As in, can I practice a bit in the yard, then roll it up and off to the lake without have to clean and dress or worry about damage?

 

[silver creek]

Grass casting wears out lines.

 

[Jackster]

Grass casting wears out lines.

I keep hearing that but must be doing something right. Sure the line get dirty and even stained but if all the line is used for is lawn practice I can't really see how grass casting has ruined any of my them.
I practice on the grass with lines that I no longer fish with. These lines are the same type I fish with so I imagine being the same system I use for fishing my practice is all good with little adaping to a line with differnt characteristics. Even with yard lines I clean and treat them as needed. Maybe because they are always slick and clean they aren't as prone to being cut by the grass. I very rarely lawn cast with the same lines I use for fishing but I will lawn cast with my good lines on occasion. After being cleaned and dressed they seem no worse for the wear but using my good lines for lawn practice is definately the exception rather than the rle.

 

[navycop10]

I was afraid of that. I use the original line that came on my 12 year old set up for yard practice. Never been cleaned or dressed, and I don't use a leader/tippet. I am probably not benefiting myself any doing this, since it is probably no where near the condition of a new, properly cared for line. I would really hate to have my pretty new white line out in the grass and get it messed up, since replacements are running upwards of $80 now.

The noise! I found this video. This is the noise I am hearing from my rod. And I am no where near the power or skill level of this guy. Probably never will be either. But no luck on the whistle of the fly/airborne line.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Kg6985oY0o&feature=related]Steve Rajeff Double Haul - YouTube[/ame]

 

[silver creek]

Steve Rajeff is a world champion. I think the noise I hear may be the line going through the air rather than shooting through the guides.

The noise seems to come right AFTER he hauls rather than exactly when he hauls. Listen as he false casts. Depending on how far the video camera is away from Steve, there could be a delay between when the image hits the camera lens vs when the noise hits the camera microphone.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[navycop10]

I seemed to think it was the sound of the line through the guides. But, I could be mistaken. I watched other videos of his, and what I wouldn't give to be half as good a fly caster as he is. Wow.

 

[wjc]

Silver,

The only thing I hear in the Rajeff cast is the whoosh from the rod going through the air. You can dupllicate that sound in the living room with the top half of a rod. In my opinion it should not be heard except when distance casting. If it is, and no distance is achieved, something is wrong with the cast.