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Thread: Casting questions from a rookie

  1. Default Casting questions from a rookie

    Still being a newbie with a fly rod, i gotta few questions about casting...

    My double haul is slowly improving and i'm able to fly more line in my false casts.
    What is the typical ratio of feet of aerial line in the false cast to the length of the final (approach) cast? In other words, if your trying to cast 70', do you fly 50' and have 20' of slack to shoot on the final, or 60' false and 10' final, or...?

    Does the answer differ with different rod weights and actions?

    Speaking of actions, Ive got a slow action echo 4 wt 8'....cant get the distance out of it compared to when i cast my son's fast action 4 wt 8' (which is a much cheaper rod). Do slow action rods typically cast shorter or is it a timing thing?

    (One more) Should higher value rod (reputable, $$$) give you more distance than $50 rod of the same class? (In golf, its 98% skill and only 2% equipment)

  2. #2

    Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

    Quote Originally Posted by brodie View Post
    Still being a newbie with a fly rod, i gotta few questions about casting...

    My double haul is slowly improving and i'm able to fly more line in my false casts.
    What is the typical ratio of feet of aerial line in the false cast to the length of the final (approach) cast? In other words, if your trying to cast 70', do you fly 50' and have 20' of slack to shoot on the final, or 60' false and 10' final, or...?

    Does the answer differ with different rod weights and actions?

    Speaking of actions, Ive got a slow action echo 4 wt 8'....cant get the distance out of it compared to when i cast my son's fast action 4 wt 8' (which is a much cheaper rod). Do slow action rods typically cast shorter or is it a timing thing?

    (One more) Should higher value rod (reputable, $$$) give you more distance than $50 rod of the same class? (In golf, its 98% skill and only 2% equipment)

    The amount of line you can shoot varies with the effectiveness of the haul, the length of line you have out of the guides, the length of the fly rod (longer rod = longer lever), and rod actions. So no single ratio is possible.

    I've talked to Gary Borger about this and he has told me that Jason tries to "carry" 100 feet of line in the air and shoot 20 feet if he is to hit a 120 foot cast.

    A faster rod action has more "reserve" power and it also flexes less for the same distance cast. Therefore the chord, or effective rod length (EFL), of the flexed rod is longer. That means that it is a longer lever and a longer lever means a longer cast.

    See 5 and 6 in the illustration below. The dotted line is the chord/EFL



    A more expensive fly rod generally is a better casting instrument. It has a thinner profile so less energy is spend fighting air resistance. It has better damping. It is lighter and therefore there is less rod inertia. But as in other sports, it is up to the caster to use the capability rod the fly rod.

    Assigning percentages as to whether the rod is X% and the angler Y% is of a cast is problematic. If there is a useful rule of thumb, I would say that a good caster can overcome poor rod dynamics, whereas a poor rod makes it much more difficult for a newbie to learn casting. So my recommendation to beginning casters is to buy at least a rod that will not hinder their casting.

    Many of your questions about fly rod dynamics are answered here:

    Fly rod line rating, power, and action - an explanation.
    Last edited by silver creek; 01-25-2013 at 03:40 PM.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

    Quote Originally Posted by brodie View Post
    (In golf, its 98% skill and only 2% equipment)
    It's not a lot different with fly rods either despite what some people will try and tell you. At best it's 95% skill and 5 % rod.

  4. Likes pkins44, itchmesir, troutnut4 liked this post
  5. Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

    Casting on a lawn, I've never been able to carry 100 feet of line before my presentation cast.

    For me to cast 107' I would false cast about 58' on my last back cast, then I'd shoot about 7' of line.

    The bottom line is: you have to experiment on you're own, but the more false casts you make the less line you'll probably be able to carry.

    BTW, the lighter your fly line the more line you'll be able to carry, which is why many casters feel they cast farther with a DT line than with with a FT.

    Randy

    P.S In many casting tournaments, casters can pick up the line in front of them with the line lying in water. That way, with the increased water tension, they can carry more line (and execute only one back cast).

    Randy

  6. #5

    Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

    Quote Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post

    BTW, the lighter your fly line the more line you'll be able to carry, which is why many casters feel they cast farther with a DT line than with with a FT.


    Randy

    ???? Don't you mean further with a WF line? What's a FT line
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  7. Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

    I meant WF. Most casters will cast farther with a WF line, perhaps, but when it comes to real long casts, Steve Rajeff said a DT allows really good casters to carry more line. A fly rod is designed to handle a certain amount of weight. If it's overloaded it slows down and the line/cast doesn't go as far; so 60 feet of a DT weighs less than 60 feet of a WF line.
    Randy

  8. #7

    Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

    Quote Originally Posted by randyflycaster View Post
    I meant WF. Most casters will cast farther with a WF line, perhaps, but when it comes to real long casts, Steve Rajeff said a DT allows really good casters to carry more line. A fly rod is designed to handle a certain amount of weight. If it's overloaded it slows down and the line/cast doesn't go as far; so 60 feet of a DT weighs less than 60 feet of a WF line.
    Randy
    I think you have it reversed. A WF has a rear taper that goes into a running line. A DT has only the front taper and then a long belly section that goes into the taper on the other end so that the line can be turned around.

    Unless you have a longbelly WF line, the first 60 feet of a Wf line will weigh less than the first 60 feet of a DT line.
    As the drawing below shows at 60 feet the WF line is into the running line so it has less mass over the first 60 feet that the DT line.

    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  9. #8

    Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

    With some 5 weight tournament-type lines now with heads approaching the 75' mark and with smaller diameter running line and very long rear tapers now allow you to carry all of that head and more because of the smooth, gradual transition from head to running line. This head design helps prevent hinging and the thin running line cuts friction and thus helps with longer shoots.
    Coating slickness too helps not only in a longer shoot but also helps prevent slack when feeding line back after each haul.
    I would say at my maximum carry I try to shoot is 20-25' feet of line. Many times though I admit to doing what so many people do and wait one false cast too much to shoot the line. Trying to sqeeze that little extra out of each false cast can ruin a perfectly good lead going into that last cast.
    Hang around casting circles enough and a common comment heard is 'should have let the one before that go'.

  10. #9

    Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

    Jackster,

    Wouldn't those be "long belly" WF fly lines and not DT lines?
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  11. #10
    Join Date
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    Lake of the Woods/Rainy River Minnesota Canada border
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    Default Re: Casting questions from a rookie

    One more thing, more carry does not mean more distance. I have video of my friend Bill doing a 90' carry with a 3 wt. I wish he would let me post. He Carries 100' with no problem with a 5 wt. line. It's cool to do, but the trick to getting more distance is not in the amount you carry but the line speed when you shoot. Higher speed means more distance.

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