Rod grip style, and Lefty's principles

[turbineblade]

Hi - I was fortunate to get to watch (and meet) Lefty this weekend at a fly tie festival in MD. He did a casting demo, and my wife got to actually cast with him for a bit -- which I was extremely happy about . He's a spry fly fisherman!

Anyway, it's hard to argue with LEfty's methods when you've watched him cast, but I had 2 points:

1. Lefty advocates a thumb on top position, and to always have the thumb facing the target on the other side of the rod grip.

2. He also advocates the "eblow on the shelf" technique, which would seem to eliminate arm-position factors from messing up your cast.

Here's my problems with these 2:

- Thumb on top and pointing directly away on all casts kills my wrists. Particularly on a more "side arm" cast, the thumb in this position feels VERY unnatural to me, and after 3 hours of it my wrist was sore...far more so than I've ever experienced before.

- The elbow on the shelf, when wading the larger streams that I fish (ones that you wade up to your stomach or chest) results in hitting yourself with the fly occasionally and/or *barely being able to clear the water behind you on the backcast. And yes, I end up backcast abruptly and at an upward angle.

From what I can tell, these two things are not compatible with how I fish .

For grip, I prefer a "v-grip" and/or index finger on top. I almost never have my thumb in the position described above....most likely because it feels uncomfortable!

For my elbow, I frequently must cast with my arm outward, and I nearly always have to raise the elbow on the forward cast to clear my skull with warm water flies.

Anyone else find this?

No disrespect to Lefty -- he's a great guy and excellent caster.

 

[brookfieldangler]

Your wrist only hurts because you haven't developed the different muscles needed to do that all day. Think back to when you first started casting fly rods....your arms probably hurt as a combination of poor technique and undeveloped muscles. As you continued, that pain stopped happening because both elements improved - the same will happen if you keep practicing with your thumb on top.

Besides, when you are casting into really windy conditions and/or big flies, the extra power generated by having your thumb on top can really be an asset. Learning this technique will make you a more versatile angler.

IN regards to you having trouble keeping your line off the water on your back cast...you most likely just aren't stopping as high as you think. I used to have the same problem and the same thought that my back cast was at a high angle...it wasn't. Deliberately try to make it even higher and you will probably be surprised.

 

[noreaster]

I was fortunate to have a great Tai chi teacher who taught me many of the ways of the classics. Holding a rod for me was similar to using tai chi whip or tai chi sword. For these weapons a loose two finger grip was advocated. Thumb and index fingers; similar to a badminton raquette. That's not to say just 2 fingers held the rod or sword. But the focus in your mind was in these fingers. A loose relaxed grip was preferred.

The rationale was that a loose grip allowed your weapon or rod to naturally become an extension of your body. No tension or white knuckles. A very loose wrist as well. The sword technique was called sticky sword. Contrary to the hard barbaric clanging of swords that we are used to seeing.

A softer approach was recommended. As well the elbow was always left relaxed and down. By properly weighting your legs (opposite of rod hand) you can swing and turn in the hips to get more power. Hope this makes sense.

I have found that the more tension free my limbs are the better my cast. Developing rod sensitivity is the name of the game.

 

[silver creek]

Hi - I was fortunate to get to watch (and meet) Lefty this weekend at a fly tie festival in MD.

1. Lefty advocates a thumb on top position, and to always have the thumb facing the target on the other side of the rod grip.

2. He also advocates the "eblow on the shelf" technique, which would seem to eliminate arm-position factors from messing up your cast.

Here's my problems with these 2:

- Thumb on top and pointing directly away on all casts kills my wrists. Particularly on a more "side arm" cast, the thumb in this position feels VERY unnatural to me, and after 3 hours of it my wrist was sore...far more so than I've ever experienced before.

- The elbow on the shelf, when wading the larger streams that I fish (ones that you wade up to your stomach or chest) results in hitting yourself with the fly occasionally and/or *barely being able to clear the water behind you on the backcast. And yes, I end up backcast abruptly and at an upward angle.

From what I can tell, these two things are not compatible with how I fish .

For grip, I prefer a "v-grip" and/or index finger on top. I almost never have my thumb in the position described above....most likely because it feels uncomfortable!

For my elbow, I frequently must cast with my arm outward, and I nearly always have to raise the elbow on the forward cast to clear my skull with warm water flies.

Anyone else find this?

No disrespect to Lefty -- he's a great guy and excellent caster.

Your observations are pretty much spot on. I suggest you keep casting the way you are.

Since Steve Rajeff, one of if not the best caster in the world, uses the elbow forward style, you might do better to improve the style you are using than to learn a new style. I think it is not the style of casting but the mastery of the style that determines the distance you can cast.

"This is the arm style of people who have most influenced casting in California, including Jimmy Green, Mel Krieger and Steve and Tim Rajeff."

Both the Elbow Forward style of Steve Rajeff and the Low Elbow style of Lefty Kreh are described by Al Kyte in Casting Clinic.

Lefty Kreh claims his style is easier on the body, however, studies have shown this is not the case. There are fewer injuries of the elbow and wrist with the overhead style compared to the sidearm low elbow style.

"A team of researchers is studying the biomechanics of fly-casting at Montana State University, Bozeman (MSU)…..

A study looking at pain ratings in relationship to casting style found no significant difference between casting style and shoulder pain." However,

Elbow pain was significantly less in casters who used multiple casting styles.

Elbow pain was significantly less for the overhead style compared with the elliptical style.

Wrist pain was significantly less for those who used the overhead style instead of either the elliptical or sidearm styles.

Wrist pain was significantly less for those who used multiple styles.

In the survey of the fly fishing instructors, those reporting use of the V-style grip indicated significantly less shoulder pain (i.e., less than 3 on an 8-point Likert scale where 0 = no pain and 7 = worst pain).4 13% of the finger-on-top, 19% of the 3-point, and 7% of the thumb-on-top users reported shoulder pain with a severity of 4 or greater.4 As noted earlier, there appears to be some discrepancy in the terminology, so respondents may have been confused as to whether they use the finger-on-top or 3-point grip."

http://www.working-well.org/articles/pdf/Fishing.pdf

 

[wt bash]

Cast how YOU are comfortable, Rajeff casts how he likes and it works for him Kerh casts how he likes, one works for one obviously doesn't for the other. Develop your own style use the pro stuff for a guidline but not every study, clinic, and magazine article is gospel.

 

[mikel]

Besides, when you are casting into really windy conditions and/or big flies, the extra power generated by having your thumb on top can really be an asset. Learning this technique will make you a more versatile angler.

I know less about the fly cast mechanics than most, but have found the above to be true. If I need to make a powerful move with the rod or really nail a roll cast, the thumb on top makes a significant difference for me...and if I'm throwing an 8 or 9wt with a heavy head (like for stripers in the delta) thumb on top is much better and saves my shoulder by end of day. Maybe that has to do with thumb on top helping me keep the rod from falling to a sidearm motion...?? $.02

 

[Rip Tide]

As to the grip....
Most often I'll "V" grip with all the pressure in the front of the hand and almost none at the heel. I've destroyed enough grips to be very conscious of this...

If I want power for distance then I'll switch to "thumb on top". For me this grip make the power stroke and sudden stop second nature.

If I want accuracy, then I'll switch to index finger on top. There's nothing better for accuracy than pointing with your finger exactly where you want the line to go.
For me, there's no reason to settle for one way over another.

 

[Guest1]

I'm going to make the assumption that Lefty advocated the thumb on top because this was all beginners. The probable reason being it helps to keep them from going back past 2 oclock. He has cast long enough to see a great many casters, some of which can cast better than Lefty, who use other grips on the rod.

I also assume that was the reason for the shelf thing. It's probably again so a beginner doesn't use his elbow like a fixed pivot point which will give you a dandy case of bad tailing loops.

Once people are not beginners and start to develope their own style, and everyone does, the shelf and thumb deal Lefty is talking about can be disregarded. I see why he says it, but if you are not comfortable, don't do it. A sure way to louse up your casting is make it uncomfortable.

 

[turbineblade]

I appreciate the feedback. Yes, this was a group of people who mostly had not held a fly rod before .

The thumb on top isn't just a muscle soreness from lack of use -- I play a lot of sports and do a lot of road cycling and know the difference between muscle building/soreness and joint pain. This is an unnatural type of pain.

I'll stick to my own style, which is working okay. I only gave this a thought because he advocated it . Funny, is that he preceded telling everyone to keep the elbow in and thumb on top by saying "most fly casting instructors teach casting the way that THEY cast...and if you aren't built like the instructor you shouldn't cast that way" .

Irony? No, I see why he'd say that. The thumb on top thing he was explaining as a means to prevent twisting the wrist on the backcast and throwing the line around a curve. I can cast finger on top and have no problem throwing the line straight (not around a curve).

I do need more practice though -- for sure!

 

[silver creek]

My experience has been that the thumb on top grip leads to the "beginner" floppy back cast. The thumb on top grip aligns the fly rod across the palm at almost 90 degrees to the forearm.

Unless the caster locks the wrist cocked forward, the rod tips way back as in the photo below. For beginners, this is an unnatural position to hold the wrist so the thumb on top grip does not prevent a floppy backcast.

Gary Borger » Blog Archive » Thumb on Top Grip

The three point grip (white line below) aligns the fly rod closer to the forearm. So at the back cast stop, the caster does not need to lock the wrist cocked forward to "correct" to prevent the rod from tipping back too far. The three point grip naturally places stop with the rod tip at 1 o'clock.

I change beginners from the thumb on top to the 3 point grips if they continue to have problems.

Gary Borger » Blog Archive » Three Point Grip Part I

 

[Guest1]

I see what you are saying.... But, in the photo with the floppy cast;

He has a bent wrist. In a V grip you can get the rod pretty close to flat without bending your wrist. If you get your thumb in the way and don't bend your wrist you can't get it back past 2 oclock. So I am going to go out on a limb here and make the assumption Lefty also said don't bend your wrist.

Turbineblade, you can also disregard the don't bend your wrist thing when you are better.

 

[Rip Tide]

Not that I haven't seen it, but even the greenest of beginners knows that he's not supposed to break his wrist as shown in the second picture above.
I couldn't fine any nifty illustrations, but as you can see in this picture Lefty rotates his thumb and reel 45* away from his body.
The same technique is taught by many of eastern fly casters and is very common

 

[Jackster]

For my elbow, I frequently must cast with my arm outward

No disrespect to Lefty -- he's a great guy and excellent caster.

Reading that makes me wonder how long your rotator cuff will last. What I envision is that you're doing the 'chicken wing'-looking cast with your elbow way out to your side. If that's the case, be forewarned, it might hurt later. I like keeping my elbow close to my body. It improves accuracy and takes a bit less effort.

When Lefty was talking about the shelf I believe he meant imagine your elbow sliding along a shelf and not static just sitting and pivoting on it. Sliding along a straight line like a shelf would help in forming a straight line path.

The thumb on top thing he was explaining as a means to prevent twisting the wrist on the backcast and throwing the line around a curve.

I find just the opposite of what Lefty said about the thumb on top curing the 'wow' on the back cast. He ain't Borger but Steve Rajeff cured me of throwing the line in a curve on the back cast as you mention by a simple grip change to a semi-V on top grip.
Grip an imaginary rod right now with a thumb up grip and make an imaginary back cast. The most natural way to make the stop is to subconsciously twist the grip slightly so that your thumb turns inward towards you.
Now start the cast with a 'V' formed by your thumb and forefinger (V Grip as it was formerly called) When you make the stop because your hand is already rotated you won't tend to twist the rod as much and will cure some of the 'wow'.
The Three Point Grip is really nothing new. I have an old casting book from the 1950's in which it was described though it wasn't named the Three Point Grip back then.

A casting instructor really shouldn't teach form as that is largely determined on what the student favors because of prior experiences and/or musculature.
I favor the thums up grip for normal casting at normal fishing ranges. I'll twist my grip around somewhat as the cast lengthens. Instead of aiming with my finger I aim with my thmb nail and seem to get good results.

If you're casting sidearm I just can't picture a thumbs up cast. I just tried it with my imaginary rod and OUCH! That does hurt. Bring your elbow in and try the same action you would use for using a hatchet (which would involve bringing your elbow up) and then use that imaginary shelf to slide your elbow on for longer casts and hopefully your pain is gone and your accuracy and efficiency is up.

 

[wjc]

Silver is absolutely right about the grip.

Turbine, I feel your pain, especially the more toward a vertical cast you get to and the farther you are trying to cast - ESPECIALLY if you have a long casting stroke and drift backwards a long way after the backcast..

It is very easy to illustrate with an overhead cast for someone with a long casting stroke. Forget the rod, just stand with your legs apart and arm fully extended with your hand a fist and your thumb straight up.

Now, keeping your thumb straight up, draw your arm back past your ear and, still keeping your thumb straight up, extend your arm behind you till your elbow is straight WITH YOUR THUMB STILL FACING UP.

It is physiologically impossible so long as that arm has a radius and an ulna. The two cannot twist around each other. It is not possible to use a thumb on top with that casting style for the backcast.

So do it again with a palm forward grip. Just leave your hand open palm down extended in front of you and repeat the proceedure so that you stop with your elbow straight and your palm facing up.

That is why Distance casters like Chase Jablonski who prefer a thumb on top for the money cast, but use a 170 degree style casting stroke, change their grip duing the "pause" from thumb on top to palm forward and vice versa.

For shorter casts where your hand doesn't go past your ear much - the thumb on top is fine (though newbies tend to drive the line into the ground as Silver said).

I find just the opposite of what Lefty said about the thumb on top curing the 'wow' on the back cast.

Exactly. It is not possible with an overhead cast. It gets much easier as you move more and more towards total sidearm (rod parralel to the ground).

 

[silver creek]

If I recall correctly, the palm forward grip is also called the key grip and palm out grip. Refering to Al Kyte again.

http://www.fedflyfishers.com/Portal...dy guide articles/Al Kyte/Grip and Stance.pdf

Here's another article on grips by Lee Cummings who is an AAGAI/FFF Master Instructor. The AAGAI is the British version of the FFF certification. Of the thumb on top grip he writes:


"Ok, let me move onto a piece of advice I have heard over the years by various non AAPGAI instructors....

'The rod should be held comfortably in your hand by laying the rod where it meets your fingers'

Lets look at this advice in slightly more detail, remembering that the client is paying to receive and take all advice literally........

The above image is the position the newcomer to the sport (who cannot decelerate the hand sufficiently to conclude the back cast) usually ends up in. The untrained muscle "memory" of which is required to "Stop" the rod is overcome and we know through experience that this position in efficient casting is not one of which we desire. We will generally see that when the wrist has "Broken" and the rod has gone too far back, the line will be sent low behind the caster, probably after an inefficient "Non Loop" had also been formed."

See illustration and text below.

Holding a fly rod to make a fly cast by Lee Cummings AAPGAI

You don't want to change what is natural for a beginning caster if the beginner can make the proper backcast stop with the thumb on top grip. Most cannot, especially if they have been spin fishers. Then I recommend a grip change because it is important for a beginner to have early success in casting 20 - 30 feet which is easily done with with placing the rod more in line with the forearm

 

[wjc]

Good pictures, Silver. I always forget about the index finger on top down here - though I used it ocassionally with light rods up north.

Seems the smallest rod on the boat when I'm trying to help people with their casting is a 10 wt - but usually an 11 or 12.

I will try the thumb on top with the 12 next time I'm casting it. That should definitely help stop the floppy wrist syndrome if I can get them to stop their arms when their hand gets around their ears.

 

[team7x]

"When Lefty was talking about the shelf I believe he meant imagine your elbow sliding along a shelf and not static just sitting and pivoting on it. Sliding along a straight line like a shelf would help in forming a straight line path."

I agree, having had a lesson with Lefty. He stresses keeping the rod tip on plane and the "elbow on the shelf" promotes on-plane and tighter loops. A thumb on top grip promotes a smaller angle between the lower grip and the wrist. It is when this angle changes dramatically in the back cast, as I see in newbies, loops open and wrists quickly become sore. The thumb on top--as I see it--encourages the caster to stop at the top, use more shoulder and elbow motion and helps in keeping the change in wrist-to-grip angle to a minimum.

 

[Flyfisher for men]

This is all making my head spin!

By coincidence, I happened to be looking at youtube yesterday at some videos of Lefty Kreh. His style is definitely his own.

Then I looked up Mel Krieger (to whom I owe the double haul), Joan Wulff, Steve Rajeff, Peter Kutzer. They all do it differently. What's in common is the stroke is smooth, the line unfurls, the forward cast accelarates smoothly to a stop, they don't overpower.

One of the things that helped me learn to fly cast (I taught myself from a book) was when I realized that the physics involved is the same as what you use in cracking a bullwhip. It's just done at a different pace, different angles, and is more a matter of finesse. Those gymnasts that run around the mat with the long ribbon are also using the same principles.

Also, "fling the tomato," "flick the paintbrush," helped.

 

[turbineblade]

The thumb on top--as I see it--encourages the caster to stop at the top, use more shoulder and elbow motion and helps in keeping the change in wrist-to-grip angle to a minimum.

I don't find this to be the case -- at all. I can MUCH more easily become "too wristy" with the thumb directly on top versus a v or finger grip.

For example, I can simply raise my right hand and without any thought or effort, make my thumb point backwards like a hitchhiker, parallel to the ground.

The v-grip most closely resembles how I'd throw a baseball and is very comfortable. The thumb on top and always pointing in line with the target is wonky...like how I'd hit a volleyball but held higher.

Maybe people are just built differently..?

I think my take-home message here so far is that it doesn't really make a damn how you hold the stupid rod, it's much more about what your casting looks like regardless of how you hold it

 

[runningfish]

I use the thump on the top for distance and the pointing finger on top for short casting.

I watched lots of casting tips and bad casting videos on youtube and make sure I don't do that. I go with my own comfortable and relaxing style but still listen to positive critiques.

Someone, mentioned about the badminton grip. I played a lot of club badminton since I was trying to be a pro player in the men's double setup in my younger years. I use that grip when I am using the baitcasting reels.