Vertical casting vs non-vertical

[wjc]

I thought this would be a good topic for discussion, because I think nearly everyone can benefit from using both for a bunch of reasons aside from simply using different muscles, and usning joints in different ways to combat fatigue.

So that's my contribution to one advantage of using both. How about guys listing one advantage or disadvantage of each method and compiling a list.

Any takers?

 

[silver creek]

I've posted this many times. Al Kyte describes the 3 major styles of casting and the folks that are associated with each stlye.

http://fedflyfishers.org/Portals/0/Documents/Casting/MCI/Arm Styles.Al Styles.pdf

Some styles are more prone to stress injuries. The low elbow style of fly casting is one of these.

"A team of researchers is studying the biomechanics of fly-casting at Montana State University, Bozeman (MSU)."

"Vary casting styles and favor the overhead style which is associated with less overall pain than the elliptical or sidearm styles."

http://www.working-well.org/articles/pdf/Fishing.pdf

Jason Borger of the Fly Casting Institute also teaches the elbow forward overhead style to minimize RSIs.

 

[mbphotos54]

I rarely cast vertical, not sure why. I suppose it could be me not wanting to snag myself.. but actually the way I cast is more off side back cast and near overhead forward stoke, this while using double haul has worked well for me.

 

[silver creek]

If I understand what you mean by a backcast off to the side (rather than a slight rod tilt) followed by an overhead cast, that is an oval or elliptical cast. It is also called a constant tension cast or Belgian "wind" cast.

It is a cast that is often use when the wind is coming from the side of your casting arm and blowing strongly into your body. The side arm backcast keeps the fly from hitting your body and the overhead cast takes the fly over your head.

The disadvantage is that each back and forward motion introduces a half twist into the fly line and leader that you will need to untwist every so often.

By casting in an oval/ellipse, we are moving the rod tip in a circle for each casting cycle of a backward and forward cast. For a right hander this causes the fly line to twist in a counter clockwise direction. Take a look at how your fly line is twisted and I bet that you will find a counter clockwise twist for a right-hander and a clockwise twist for a left-hander.

To prove this to yourself, take a pencil in your like a rod and bring it back low to your side and then around the ellipse and forward high, then back low and forward high, over and over. Look at the circle your hand and arm are making and you will see that you are moving in a counter clockwise circle.

 

[Jackster]

When practicing a good routine to throw in once in a while is to cast around the clock. With a true vertical cast being 12:00, while false casting tilt the rod stroke gradually down to the 3:00 position and work the casts all the way up and over to an across the body stroke to the 9:00 position.
The low strokes are good for throwing casts under overhanging trees and for keeping the fly away from your body. If over or under powered, side arm casts will help you throw curve casts.
If casting right handed overpower a side arm cast off of your right side and do a very fast and firm stop and the line will flick over and curve to the left. Under power the same cast and it will create a sloppy, hard to repeat curve to the right. When doing curves I prefer using an overhead cast with a rod tip twist at the end of te stroke but the over and under powered strokes are reliable if not repeatable and accurate.


A low casting plane will also help keep the line out of the wind as there is less wind velocity the closer to the water you can make the casting stroke.


To what silver creek, the IFFF and Jason said, to check to see if you have twists in your line, hang two sections of line 10-20' from the leader butt a foot or two long next to each other and see if they twist together. If they do you have twisted line that can be untwisted by taking off the leader and letting the line float downstream or behind a running boat for a while. If a right handed caster you can also cast the line in clockwise circles over your head to remove twists, take twists out by spinning line pinched between your thumb and forefinger and shaking the twist out to the end and a host of other ways to remove twists including installing the line correctly right from start and/or using Rio or your variation of Rio anti-twist swivels.

 

[wjc]

So far we have :

Non-vertical Pros:

1)Keeps the line away from the body more than vertical cast.
2) Good for getting under obstructions.
3) A low casting plane will help keep the line out of the wind.


I'll add two more pro's to non-vertical (actually sidearm - rod parallel to water).

4) Stealth - rod and line not flashing high at fish in calm clear water - less likely to spook them. Nor does that *movement (*5 below) rock the skiff like a rocking motion back and forth.
5) Power through torsion - hip and shoulder rotation does not affect rod tracking at all. If the rod remains horizontal, the tracking is perfectly in plane.

Comeon guys lets get some more. No cons yet and nothing about vertical at all.

 

[Jackster]

Pro-vertical...

Accuracy
Keeping line off the water or grass when false casting.
Finding range.
Better roll casting for distance and again accuracy.
Can see the line better as an instructor or student.
Can see loops and line behaviour better as an observer.

 

[bobbrown]

When I do the Belgium cast..and check my backcast....the elliptical motion of the rod tip causes an open loop on the back cast. I use it when necessary but don't see how it is beneficial for everyday casting where loop control is important.

 

[silver creek]

When I do the Belgium cast..and check my backcast....the elliptical motion of the rod tip causes an open loop on the back cast. I use it when necessary but don't see how it is beneficial for everyday casting where loop control is important.

By loop control, I assume one aspect of controlling a loop is preventing a tailing loop and getting a "wind knot". The elliptical casts make wind casts impossible. Because the back cast and forward cast are in different planes, the are separated in a three dimensional space and the lines can never cross.

A wind knot occurs because the following fly leg (upper leg) of the casting loop falls below the standing rod leg (lower leg) AND the legs are in the same casting plane. See # 3 below.

BOTH situations must occur, that is the following leg must cross the standing leg and the legs must be in the same plane. A wind knot cannot occur if the two legs of fly line are in different casting planes.

Example - By using an elliptical casting motion, the back cast and forward cast are made in different planes and this separates the two legs of the loop formation. Even if the fly and rod legs of the loop formation cross vertically, they cannot catch on each other because they are separated horizontally in space; they are in different planes.

To see how this works, make a side arm back cast and then an overhead forward cast and you will see than the two legs of the loop are in different planes. Even if the upper fly leg of the loop drops down on the forward stroke, there is no lower rod leg of the loop to get tangle with because there is a horizontal separation of the two legs of the loop.

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:08 PM ----------

Pro-vertical...

Accuracy
Keeping line off the water or grass when false casting.
Finding range.
Better roll casting for distance and again accuracy.
Can see the line better as an instructor or student.
Can see loops and line behaviour better as an observer.

I totally agree.

I would add that I think it has the simplest casting motion and is the easiest to teach.

It also is the best for distance. The back cast and forward cast are separated by 180 degrees, and this 180 separation allows the energy/momentum of the forward cast to be most efficiently stored in the fly rod for the back cast and vice versa. The fly line is also as far off of the ground for both the back cast and forward cast so it can travel father before hitting the ground (point 2 in Jackster's list). All of these properties make the optimum cast for distance.

Because the vertical cast is the most elevated cast, it keeps the backcast from catching on vegetation behind you on the river bank.

It is also the easiest cast to slip in between vertical obstructions on/in the water or on shore. If you need to slip your backcast in between two trees, you do not want the upper and lower legs of your cast separated horizontally in space.

It is also the cast upon which most of the common in the air mends and specialty casts are built. For example, the reach mend is most effective with a vertical cast. From the vertical stop the caster has the longest time to complete and place complex mends such as curve mends.

The puddle cast, the parachute cast, the tuck cast, the pile cast, the corkscrew curve cast, and the sky curve cast are based on the vertical cast.

For a right handed caster, the corkscrew curve hooks to the left and the sky curve hooks to the right.

Corkscrew Curve Cast:

http://fishfliesandwater.com/casting-mending/corkscrew-curve/

Sky Curve Cast:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3ZpPru_CRU]Unbelievable Curve Cast!! Fly Casting / Mahler's Sky Curve - YouTube[/ame]

 

[wjc]

So far we have :

Non-vertical Pros:

1)Keeps the line away from the body more than vertical cast.
2) Good for getting under obstructions.
3) A low casting plane will help keep the line out of the wind.
4) Stealth - rod and line not flashing high at fish in calm clear water - less likely to spook them. Nor does that *movement (*5 below) rock the skiff like a rocking motion back and forth.
5) Power through torsion - hip and shoulder rotation does not affect rod tracking at all. If the rod remains horizontal, the tracking is perfectly in plane.

Vertical Pros:


1) Accuracy
a. vertical loops do not cause fly to hook if cast a little too hard.
b. to place fly to the left, say, of a previous false cast requires an adjustment in only one plane.
2) Easier to keep line off the water or grass when false casting. Line is higher and takes more time to fall.
3) Finding range. (*why can't that be done off-vertical?)
4) Better roll casting for distance and again accuracy.
5)Can see the line better as an instructor or student.
6)Can see loops and line behaviour better as an observer.
7) Better for distance. (Absolutely, in calm conditions.)
8) easiest cast to slip in between vertical obstructions on/in the water or on shore.
9) Very versatile. Great number of specialty casts and mends work off the vertical cast.

 

[silver creek]

So far we have :

Vertical Pros:

3) Finding range. (*why can't that be done off-vertical?)

The range can be dialed in if the forward delivery cast is done vertically, but a non vertical delivery is not accurate. Why?

Because in a vertical delivery, the casting plane is in a direct line with the target and all you need to do is to get the distance right.

With a non vertical delivery, the greater the angle off to the side the rod casting plane is, the harder it is to hit the target. Too much power, you get a curve to the left for a right hander. Too little power and you get a curve off to the right for a right hander. Remember that this is how a sidearm over powered and underpowered curve caste are made. Not only does the over and under powered off vertical cast place the line angle to the the target off a bit BUT a curve take a longer path so it both the angle will be off and the cast will fall short.

 

[wjc]

and all you need to do is to get the distance right.

The "range" in everything I've ever done has always BEEN the distance. Whether in the military on the rifle or artillery range, or at the golf driving range.the targets always have the distance marked on them or known before hand from a topo map or rangefinder on the periscope, for the old navy guys. In fact, in the military the "distance" is called out as "range" and referred to as "range" (ie. "maximum effective range").

It is the "direction" or "azmuth" that is much easier with an overhead cast because it doesn't change much with line speed variations, height above the target at turnover, loop size at turnover and so on. When the loop straightens out it is going straight down. All you have to do is go straight back and forth with the rod once you have the direction.

With a 45 degree cast it is not coming straight down but on a 45 degree angle. So both loop size, height above the water at turnover, turnover speed are all variables as well as the point it space where the rod tip stops, because that determines the direction the line will go initially.

But for a lot of fishing, accuracy is not that important especially if you haven't a clue where the fish are, if any,.

But there is no doubt that it is much easier, in light wind, to get the direction right with vertical casting.

 

[runningfish]

The Belgium or the Oval cast is my go to cast when I am casting heavy flies. Just today, I did a vertical cast and a sneaky pete hit the inside flap of my hat and missed my right ear thanks to the buffs that I wore to cover my face and ears.
I am having difficulties to open my loop for larger flies in vertical casting, especially when I have higher ground behind me. It is either I am ducking or the flies hitting the rod. But that could be just a problem for a newbie.
However, Non-Vertical or Belgian cast helps me a lot. All I have to do is doing 1 o'clock and 3 o'clock counter clockwise. Regarding the accuracy, I think following thru after your forward cast increase the accuracy, just like the golf swing.

 

[Jackster]

Regarding the accuracy, I think following thru after your forward cast increase the accuracy, just like the golf swing.

I'm not sure equating a golf swing with a casting stroke is that very similar.
For the most part you are stopping the rod to make the fly go. It's the direction the rod tip is going at the stop that plays a huge part in the direction the fly ends up going.
If you stop a golf club mid-swing usually bad things happen.
The popular analogies used to help describe and visualize a proper casting stroke involve accelerating to a stop, Some of these descriptions are flicking paint off of a paint brush, tossing liquid out of a glass, lobbing an apple stuck on a stick, throwing a dart and so on.

wjc, I guess I've never tried going sidearm when casting for accuracy because when casting overhead I can gage both distance and direction.
The best way to explain it is that the fly hovers over the area in false casting to help me judge both direction and distance. Now that you've forced me into thinking about it, maybe it's that point in time when the fly is changing direction between the forward and backward stroke. In photography I believe they call this instant the peak of action.

 

[bobbrown]

I agree with silvercreeks response to my statement concerning the wind knots. However, by it's nature, the Belgium cast does have the legs in a 3 dem. plane. IMHO this leads to an opening of the loop and a more ineffectual distance cast. I dont know...but I doubt steve rajeff uses this cast in tournaments....and he's someone to pattern yourself after.

 

[silver creek]

I agree with silvercreeks response to my statement concerning the wind knots. However, by it's nature, the Belgium cast does have the legs in a 3 dem. plane. IMHO this leads to an opening of the loop and a more ineffectual distance cast. I dont know...but I doubt steve rajeff uses this cast in tournaments....and he's someone to pattern yourself after.

Every single handed distance competitor I have seen uses the vertical cast.

 

[wjc]

wjc, I guess I've never tried going sidearm when casting for accuracy because when casting overhead I can gage both distance and direction.

It doesn't surprise me, Jackster, since off-vertical casting is not nearly so accurate - in reasonably calm conditions.

Let me put it another way, that is much easier to visualize. Imagine a fly coming down on top of a 2 foot diameter hula hoop sitting on the ground. You have a perfectly round target 2 feet in diameter to hit.

Now imagine casting at that same hula hoop propped up at a 45 degree angle on one side. The diameter in the "distance" axis is the same. But the diameter in the "direction" axis is much smaller than 2 feet.

That's the "effective" target width when casting a rod angled @45 degrees. Now that is presuming that fly and rod legs of the loop are exactly parallel AND that the cast trajectory is such that the loop straightens out at exactly ground level, OR stops at the right spot above that narrowed circle, extends fully without any hook, and falls vertically into the full circle. Either way, you have a narrowed target to hit.

But the distance does not change.

I dont know...but I doubt steve rajeff uses this cast in tournaments....and he's someone to pattern yourself after.

Bob, I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly, but I would be reluctant to advise anyone to pattern their casting after anyone if what you mean is to immitate their style or technique. What I think IS important is to learn the fundamentals, then experiment to find the best way for you to execute those fundamentals your own way. Remember too, that tournaments, whether distance or accuracy, are not fishing. I would bet money that if there were a video of Joan Wulff casting for tarpon on a windy day, her stroke would look absolutely nothing like the one we are used to seeing on her videos.

 

[runningfish]

I'm not sure equating a golf swing with a casting stroke is that very similar.
For the most part you are stopping the rod to make the fly go. It's the direction the rod tip is going at the stop that plays a huge part in the direction the fly ends up going.
If you stop a golf club mid-swing usually bad things happen.
The popular analogies used to help describe and visualize a proper casting stroke involve accelerating to a stop, Some of these descriptions are flicking paint off of a paint brush, tossing liquid out of a glass, lobbing an apple stuck on a stick, throwing a dart and so on.

wjc, I guess I've never tried going sidearm when casting for accuracy because when casting overhead I can gage both distance and direction.
The best way to explain it is that the fly hovers over the area in false casting to help me judge both direction and distance. Now that you've forced me into thinking about it, maybe it's that point in time when the fly is changing direction between the forward and backward stroke. In photography I believe they call this instant the peak of action.

Of course, in golf if you stop mid-swing or right after you hit the ball many things will happen and injuries will also happen. Oh well, I guess the golf swing analogy didn't quite fit into what I was trying to say.

 

[bobbrown]

I would think the great distance casters have a firm grasp of casting fundamentals. You can tweak the fundamentals to you own particular style but.....IMHO....you'll pay in the long run. Stay with the basics and watch and learn from the pros

 

[wjc]

I would think the great distance casters have a firm grasp of casting fundamentals. You can tweak the fundamentals to you own particular style but.....IMHO....you'll pay in the long run. Stay with the basics and watch and learn from the pros.

I agree. We may simply be using different symantics and definitions. Casting fundamentals are nothing more than derivitives of laws of physics.

The widely divergent style difference between Lefty and Steve Rajeff both are based on identical fundamental casting mechanics. Style develops around the fundamentals: it does not attempt (sucessfully) to change them.

My point was:

What I think IS important is to learn the fundamentals, then experiment to find the best way for you to execute those fundamentals your own way. Remember too, that tournaments, whether distance or accuracy, are not fishing.

The reason I say this is because some people cannot cast well using the Steve Rajeff style or the Lefty style or the Paul Arden style etc. Everyone needs to experiment to find his own "default" style for different casts and different conditions. It's a long term, personal exploration.