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robmedina
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runningfish
Well-known member
Changing my mind
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silver creek
Well-known member
There is no way to give a correct answer to your question. I'm not even sure what the 90 degrees and 180 degrees of rod angle are since you have not set a point of reference. 90 degrees relative to what?
Secondly, the optimum timing of a double haul depends on multiple factors. Have you ever noticed that very few of the experts articles tell you exactly WHEN you should haul? Why is that?
The reason is that the timing of the haul depends on how you cast and the equipment you are using. For example, if you make a backcast so that there is some slack in your fly line as you begin you forward cast, an earlier haul that removes that slack and straightens the fly line for the forward cast might improve you forward cast more than a later haul. Why? Because with an earlier haul and a straight fly line, you don't waste stroke length removing that slack.
But if you begin your forward cast with a perfectly straight line and no waves or slack, a late haul is best because it maximizes fly line velocity right before the rod stop.
Read Al Kye's FFF article on the double haul and how the fly line and fly rod used influences when the haul is performed and how fast a haul is made.
http://www.fedflyfishers.org/Portals/0/Documents/Casting/MCI/The Double Haul.Al Kyte.pdf
There are several possible reasons why you are getting a tailing loop with that forward cast haul. One is that you are creeping the rod forward before your forward cast. This forces you to "jab" the fly rod during the forward cast causing a tip bounce during the cast.
Another cause is that the haul is too sudden and too early. Another is that you are not tipping the rod tip out of the way at the forward stop.
See the video on fly rod creep.
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plh_kaGpwQw]How to fly Fish:: Avoiding Rod Creep - YouTube[/ame]
Read the following on tailing loops.
http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-cast/117272-throwing-tailing-loops-like-crazy-3.html
http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-cast/297920-tight-strong-loops-catch-fly-back-line.html
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turbineblade
Guest
I can't see how it's possible to throw ANY fly line over 100' with anything other than an excellent forward and backcast.
Are you basing this upon the fact that you can *see the backing on your reel and you know you have a 100' fly line, or have you actually used a long meter tape to verify your distance? I've been out with people who've said they "can cast 100 feet" and then found that they're nowhere near this mark -- with snake-like loops of line laid out in front (and often a collapse at the fly end) and my tape spitting back closer to 60-70 feet more often. I haven't watched you cast so I obviously can't determine this, but I just can't imagine someone with an admittedly bad forward cast hitting 100'....or really even beyond 60-70'. That's just not been my experience. Beyond 70', to me, requires a pretty solid all-around cast.....longer distances require more attention to minor details in timing, loop size, hauling speed, trajectory, etc.
Also, with a mod/fast or fast 5-weight you should be pretty close to your max distance with ANY rod IMO. I don't find that there's much difference in my distance from my 5-8 weight rods, everything else being equal.
Do you have a video of your cast?
My wife has some issues with forward creep (and resulting tailing loops) as described by silver above -- very good advice from him as always. He's helped me quite a bit in developing my own cast.
Are you basing this upon the fact that you can *see the backing on your reel and you know you have a 100' fly line, or have you actually used a long meter tape to verify your distance? I've been out with people who've said they "can cast 100 feet" and then found that they're nowhere near this mark -- with snake-like loops of line laid out in front (and often a collapse at the fly end) and my tape spitting back closer to 60-70 feet more often. I haven't watched you cast so I obviously can't determine this, but I just can't imagine someone with an admittedly bad forward cast hitting 100'....or really even beyond 60-70'. That's just not been my experience. Beyond 70', to me, requires a pretty solid all-around cast.....longer distances require more attention to minor details in timing, loop size, hauling speed, trajectory, etc.
Also, with a mod/fast or fast 5-weight you should be pretty close to your max distance with ANY rod IMO. I don't find that there's much difference in my distance from my 5-8 weight rods, everything else being equal.
Do you have a video of your cast?
My wife has some issues with forward creep (and resulting tailing loops) as described by silver above -- very good advice from him as always. He's helped me quite a bit in developing my own cast.
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robmedina
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comeonavs
Well-known member
Hi Rob,
I am no expert, I can get my 3 weights out about 30 yards. I see the guys here giving some good feedback.
Lots of great casters around here, I am not one. So I hope you hang out and provide us all some insight as to where you fish and provide us all with some feedback as well.
Something that has helped my double haul tremendously is to feed line into my back cast. If youve never done this, it can be a bit awkward at first because most casters feed line into their forward false cast.. which I do also. but on my last false back cast, I will feed line then pinch it and start my haul. This loads the rod deeply and launches the forward cast effortlessly.
but, if youre throwing line 105' we probably cant say much to increase that.
but, if youre throwing line 105' we probably cant say much to increase that.
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robmedina
Guest
thanks guys.ill figure it out.
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turbineblade
Guest
Just going to add:
Don't focus so much on your double haul as you do on good, hard stops and tight loops both backward and forward. Shooting line and adding a double haul (to me) are secondary to this IMO. The double haul is excellent for avoiding fatigue when you're casting all day and it certainly adds line speed and facilitates shooting for distance, but you don't want it to be a crutch to compensate for wimpy stops or wide loops
.
That's my take -- just an opinion.
Don't focus so much on your double haul as you do on good, hard stops and tight loops both backward and forward. Shooting line and adding a double haul (to me) are secondary to this IMO. The double haul is excellent for avoiding fatigue when you're casting all day and it certainly adds line speed and facilitates shooting for distance, but you don't want it to be a crutch to compensate for wimpy stops or wide loops
.That's my take -- just an opinion.
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robmedina
Guest
Thanks for your reply-Just going to add:
Don't focus so much on your double haul as you do on good, hard stops and tight loops both backward and forward. Shooting line and adding a double haul (to me) are secondary to this IMO. The double haul is excellent for avoiding fatigue when you're casting all day and it certainly adds line speed and facilitates shooting for distance, but you don't want it to be a crutch to compensate for wimpy stops or wide loops
That's my take -- just an opinion.
I can do all that you say with line management up to 50 feet. but when it comes to casting further it seems that when I do the stop on the forward cast I get that dreaded tailing, or closed loop. Now I know it could probably be all timing- but I try so many times and it seems as though when I stop following the " guide" lines I do better.
Lefty Kreh states that no two people cast the same- as we all have different body mechanics. Peter Hayes certainly does not do the traditional cast and supposedly achieves 170' cast. (Of course in every video I have seen of him I have not seen his loops)
I think the best thing for me would be for me to video myself casting and see where I am going wrong.
Yesterday on the water I got nice tight loops by waiting to haul on the forward cast until the rod was in front of me- that helped tremendously with the closed loops but I could not get any further than about 50-60 feet in thigh high water. Granted I was not using a stripping basket so my intermediate line was submerged while false casting thus providing resistance.
Like someone posed the question- "How do you get to Carnegie hall?" practice, practice, practice.
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robmedina
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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OKaWOtZ4IA"]Error 502 (Server Error)!!1[/ame]
There are far better video's out there these days to learn from. Johnny is casting a 'glass rod which appears way different in action compared to modern plastic rods. Their advise to move the rod from 12:00 to 3:00 won't play well in modern technique unless you really intend to splat the line down.
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robmedina
Guest
I just thought folks might get a kick out of it.
comeonavs
Well-known member
I love it,
All the modern technology in the world and I cant double haul to save my life. I really was digging the gigantic monogrammed endorsement on the back of his shirt.
All the modern technology in the world and I cant double haul to save my life. I really was digging the gigantic monogrammed endorsement on the back of his shirt.
calftail
Well-known member
Fly fishing trivia....
Johnny Dieckman had a girlfriend....you know her as Joan Wulff.
Dieckman died in a plane crash at 35 yrs old in 1962. He was a world champ.
Johnny Dieckman had a girlfriend....you know her as Joan Wulff.
Dieckman died in a plane crash at 35 yrs old in 1962. He was a world champ.
lake flyer
Well-known member
You might be speeding up your casting motion too much, instead of applying power from the haul. Try casting at a comfortable distance (35-40 ft?) without hauling and then without changing tempo start introducing a haul near the end of each stroke, just as you are turning your wrist over. I think you might add up to ten feet of distance without any added power from your casting hand. Once you get the hang of it you will realize that the casting hand provides the direction and rhythm and the hauling hand provides the power. I found that advice helped me reduce tailing loops when going for distance.
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robmedina
Guest
I would have deleted the post if I could. I wasn't feeling real welcome from some people here. Nothing like being unfairly judged.
Hmmmm. I just re read this thread and don't see any negative posts. I admit mine was on the sarcastic side, but it was after you bailed on the thread. Something to remember is, any reasonable topic is worth following thru on. a lot of people read it. It may not be helping you, but when this kind of knowledge gets expressed, other people learn. Its all good
If you really are casting that much line, I would like to read more posts from you. I certainly cant throw that much line and am in awe of those who can.
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