Fly Casting Italian Style

eastfly66

Well-known member
Messages
4,771
Reaction score
1,931
Location
MA
I came across references to this while ordering a line from Barrios (UK) and decided to take a peak. This utube is a beginning anyway ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Wgs6KftR0

We have some people here that maybe able to provide some comment ....

note how that rod flexes at the butt section ? Interesting kinda spey , kinda not ...........
 
J

james w 3 3

Guest
Wow! I've never seen anything like that.
Going to have to watch it a few more times, then off the the practice pond.
Thanks for posting this, now I'm going back to watch more of his stuff . . . never too old to learn something new . . . wait till the guys at the fly club see me do THAT!!
 

eastfly66

Well-known member
Messages
4,771
Reaction score
1,931
Location
MA
Wow! I've never seen anything like that.
Same for me James, I was ordering another line from Mike Barrio and he had a couple lines designed for this casting , so I decided to investigate. The vids I found don't provide much , perhaps the links Henry ( Silver Creek ) gave us above will be a little more informative. I visit the UK site from time to time and have seen it mentioned there also but never gave it much thought , one thing at a time if you know what I mean. :)
BTW , the Barrio lines are worth a look , I have had a Mallard DT4 for a while but shelved it until yesterday and returned for a closer look. It cast exactly as Mike said , very low memory and delivers very well , there is no kick so line control is in the casters hands. Also roughly $45/delivered. I am fishing it this AM and will comment later , I have a GT90 and SLX on the way. Mike ships pretty fast (across the pond) and responds to email question even faster. For the distance guru they have the GT125 (that's right ,125' )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-gcRtGRBrk

Barrio SLX proto (no longer a proto , been around for a while , popular in UK)
 
Last edited:

wolfglen

Well-known member
Messages
1,736
Reaction score
13
Location
Punta Gorda, Florida
Never, never, NEVER flex a rod with your thumb against the blank, even if you think you know what you're doing. Others will watch you and do likewise. If you WANTED to break your fishing rod, this is the way to do it.

Why? Well first, it forces the cross section of the rod out of round (which is what happens when a rod goes into an extreme bend and why a soda straw collapses when bent as it has no hoop strength) and second because it stretches the linear fibers in that immediate area beyond it's elastic limit instead of distributing the load throughout the entire length of the fiber.

Pretty difficult to break your pencil (the whole pencil, not just the lead), but if you wanted to, this is the way you would do it.

You break firewood over your knee and it's easy right? Well, that's just what you're doing to your rod.

I've seen a half dozen rods broken in shops with idiots doing that to the tip. True, it wasn't done at the tip, but do that to a fine custom rod in front of a competent rod builder and if it's one of his rods, you might get a black eye.
 

wjc

Well-known member
Messages
2,246
Reaction score
80
Location
south florida
They call that the TLT style and from the videos/descriptions I've seen of it, many of them "underline" their rods 2 or three weights and throw narrow loops at high speed low to the water in a fast cadence. The latter is essential, of course, if you are keeping the line low to the water.

This makes sense considering that in all the videos I've seen, they are fishing small, fast streams with banks clogged with brush. They will not be getting long drag-free drifts. Accuracy and thread-the-needle shots into the puckerbrush for short, quick presentations are the objectives.

The casting stroke itself is not so much different from Lefty's style if you ask me. Some of you may note that Lefty also will "underline" his rods on ocassion.

Here is a much better video of the technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_splBdOtMo
Notice
that he is double hauling with only about 25 or 30 feet of line out to generate the high line speed and to narrow his loops.
 
Last edited:

duker

Well-known member
Messages
1,356
Reaction score
635
Location
Gulf Islands
When I first started fly fishing I cast Italian-style. My line ended up looking like a bunch of spaghetti noodles in the water by my feet.

Ba-dum-dum.

Scott
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
11,065
Reaction score
8,067
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Wgs6KftR0[/ame]

You will notice that in the video, the caster does a "C" Pickup to flick water off of the dry fly. You don't need to cast Italian style to use it.

Gary Borger » Blog Archive » The “C” Pickup

Some of the casts are sidearm constant tension oval casts. Others are overhead and even cross body. It seems to me that the strategy is short accurate floats with the cast unfurling just above the water whether the trajectory is by sidearm or overhead. Hence the light lines that match the leader butt so the long leaders are extension of the fly line allowing the loop formation to the end of the cast.

I agree that you won't get much of a float when the entire leader extends ABOVE the water. I suspect that the strategy in this case is to get a reaction strike by simulating a fly landing just in front of the fish. Notice that there is NO nymphing or a dry dropper which would be very difficult to do with this technique. The tight loop precludes a second trailing fly which would entangle the tight loop.

It seems to me that the way the caster creates slack is that he casts so that the leader hits the water BEFORE the leader loop unfurls. This delivers a bunch of slack at the point where the loop hits the water. By determining when the loop hits the water, he controls the amount of slack at the point of delivery.

It is a different way of creating slack.

The second video demonstrated a more diversified casting with slack line casts

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_splBdOtMo[/ame]
 

eastfly66

Well-known member
Messages
4,771
Reaction score
1,931
Location
MA
It looks like there would be a lot of snapped tippet and lost flies in the learning process , how are they getting a straight line path when the rod tip is not traveling in a straight line on the forward cast ?
 

silver creek

Well-known member
Messages
11,065
Reaction score
8,067
Location
Rothschld, Wisconsin
It looks like there would be a lot of snapped tippet and lost flies in the learning process
You only get a snapped tippets if you "crack" the whip by starting the forward cast BEFORE the backcast has unfurled. If you wait until the backcast has straightened, you are starting the forward cast against a tight leader and the tippet will not break.

how are they getting a straight line path when the rod tip is not traveling in a straight line on the forward cast ?
The rod tip is traveling in a straight line BEFORE the stop, then the caster tips the rod tip down to form the loop. The amount the rod is tipped, determines the size of the loop.

The cast does NOT break any of the rules of casting. The rod tip direction and path determines the direction and shape of the fly leg of the cast. The tip down of the rod AFTER the stop, starts loop formation and determines the loop size by separating the rod leg from the fly leg of the loop.

Since one end of the fly line (the trailing end) is attached to the fly (fly leg) and the other end (the leading end) to the rod (rod leg), the loop width has to be the distance the rod tip was tipped from the path of the fly leg! Physics dictates that this has to be so. Before the stop, the rod leg and fly leg are IDENTICAL. Once they are separated, one leg is moving (the fly leg) and has kinetic energy (KE) and momentum (P), and the other (rod leg) is stationary and therefore has no KE or P.

As the fly line goes around the loop (the fly leg become the rod leg), the KE and P of the just formed rod leg is transferred the the remaining fly leg. The fly leg is getting shorter, therefor it is losing mass. Since KE and P is being added to the fly leg, its velocity must increase as the mass goes down to conserve KE and P. Some of the KE and P of the fly leg is lost to aerodynamic drag of the line, leader, and fly as the loop and fly leg move through the air.

This balance of aerodynamic drag which is slowing the cast vs KE/M transfer whihc is speeding the cast determines whether the fly leg moves faster or slower as the fly line turns over.

Look at two casts in the video below.

The first cast is at about 1 min 50 sec and is an overhead cast. The stop and loop formation happens so fast that it may look like there is no stop, but there is. The fly leg is the path of the rod tip. The physics of casting dictate that if you follow the fly get forward, it will lead to the level of casting rod stop. This is where the loop begins to form.

Similarly, the physics of casting dictate that the level of the rod leg will be determined by the amount the rod tip was moved out of the way of the fly leg. Therefore the rod leg reveals the amount of the rod tip movement AFTER the stop.

EVEN IF WE CANNOT SEE THE ACTUAL ROD STOP, THE PHYSICS TELLS US WHERE IT OCCURRED!!!! This deductive reasoning is just as valid as seeing it.

The second cast is at 2 min 40 sec into the video and shows a very tight loop. The caster performs a thrust cast in which the rod is thrust forward at the very end of the cast much like you would thrust a sword forward. This automatically produces a very HARD stop. At end of a thrust, the arm cannot go forward anymore and the rod is forced to stop! The size of the loop is determined by the thrust of the rod tip, and this thrust can form a very tight loop depending on the direction of the final thrust vs the direction of the fly leg (the direction the rod tip was going before the thrust).

Roll the video back and forward to examine these two casts to see what I mean. Then run the 2nd cast at regular speed and watch the end of the fly line at the leader as the cast unfurls. Is the velocity increasing?

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Wgs6KftR0[/ame]
 
Last edited:

eastfly66

Well-known member
Messages
4,771
Reaction score
1,931
Location
MA
I see it now , I had to stop the video frame to frame to see it. The thrusting/stabbing motion is confusing , but I understand the concept.
 

grhen

Member
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Location
Northern California
I was briefly exposed to this about 15 years ago. It is a form developed by Roberto Pragliola and called TLT (Tecnica Lancio Totale). TLT Academy – Roberto Pragliola

If I remember correctly it uses short 7.5 foot rods underlined by 2 or 3 line weights and depends on a lot of acceleration and is a dry fly technique for small streams.

Things I noticed in the 17 minute video posted above:
These seem to be constant tension casts, there is a lot of drift both forward and back during the time a rod is normally stopped.​
The above translates into very long strokes. In one part of the video he is making a ~35 foot cast but his stroke (the distance his hand travels) is nearly two arms length when body motion is taken into account. See the video at about 7:48. An efficient caster can do that distance with about 14 inches of stroke with just as tight a loop. (see below about the loops)​
The speed and length of the stroke used requires more physical effort than the form used by most of the casters I know. From a personal perspective he is working too hard to make those distances and the technique isn't doing anything that can't be done by a decent caster using more traditional techniques.​
The casts are made with the rod nearly horizontal which can affect accuracy or induce some line kick at turn over.​
The horizontal rod position makes his loop look much tighter than they really are. We can all look that good from a sided perspective if we cast with a horizontal rod, so loops aren't as amazing as the video makes it to be.​
I do have to admit the later part of the video shows some great rod handling for specialty casts.​
It's good to watch others who are good at what they do. There is always some possibility of learning something useful.
 

eastfly66

Well-known member
Messages
4,771
Reaction score
1,931
Location
MA
It's good to watch others who are good at what they do. There is always some possibility of learning something useful.
agreed , it does appear to be more work than need to achieve such a short cast but your also right it could be useful and fun to try ! :)
 

wjc

Well-known member
Messages
2,246
Reaction score
80
Location
south florida
Wolf, it just looks to me like casting. If you want to cast needle nose loops horizontally, just cast needle nose loops horizontally. I really don't see it as anything different - it's just that guy's style of casting. If you want to double haul with 25 feet of line out - just do it.

I really don't see anything particularly special about it. Casting is casting.

That trick for drying the fly without a false cast looks cool though. I've never done it that way before or seen it done before watching that video. Very cool. If I ever fish fresh water again with dry flies, I'll have to figure out how to do it without hooking my face.
 

eastfly66

Well-known member
Messages
4,771
Reaction score
1,931
Location
MA
An extremely complex solution to a simple problem?
Really Jack ? :) haven't you been here long enough to know that is what we do best ? This is the forum where we debate 1/16 of .oz on rod and reel balance ? I'm thinking Jerry needs to weight the hackles on my flies from now on too.
 

vgb

Active member
Messages
30
Reaction score
2
There is a lot of misleading stuff about TLT on the net, people focus too much on the cast and the equipment and miss the point. The style was developed to solve drag problems in the fast clear alpine streams. The answer to the problem was long leaders which needed high line speeds to deliver, hence the stiff rods. I have fished with TLT instructors and it is worth looking at how they present flies and not focus on the differences in technique, I learnt a lot from it:

Videos | S.I.M. Suisse

PS I have no affiliation with TLT
 
T

turbineblade

Guest
You know, I had a good constant-tension cast going on this weekend trying to cast a huge 1/0 popper on a 7-weight. Make a big ugly circle, and plop! :)
 

wolfglen

Well-known member
Messages
1,736
Reaction score
13
Location
Punta Gorda, Florida
Really Jack ? :) haven't you been here long enough to know that is what we do best ? This is the forum where we debate 1/16 of .oz on rod and reel balance ? I'm thinking Jerry needs to weight the hackles on my flies from now on too.
That's why I always try to break everything down to the lowest common denominator before trying to fix anything.

I just see a lot more energy being expended there.

Now about the dry flies, back in the 60's I had an older friend John Lane from TGF who was an excellent fly tyer, not really commercial, but he did sell a few. There was one guy who was always after John to tie flies for him and always complained about something.

So, John took some of the very best dry fly hackle he could fine, put them on 3x light wire hooks for the guy and tied them with LEAD wire under the body.
At the next meeting the guy brought the flies up to John in public and said his flies wouldn't float. John put the fly on the table, showed how it rode high on the table, put in a glass of water GENTLY and showed that it floated and showed everyone how stiff and clean of fiber the hackle was, took the flies back, said "It must be your casting" and walked away. The guy never bothered him again.
 
Top