Collapsing loop

pleasantvalley

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Ok guys, I need help bettering my cast. I have been trying to crisply cast from the elbow, keeping the reel close to my ear. Rod from 10:30ish to 2:30ish on back and forward cast. I have been getting a more powerful loading of the rod and tighter loop overall, leading to a bit more distance.

The issues I am having lately are this:
1. My loop is a bit too tight and my fly comes down and snags my floating line.
2. My floating line comes out to straight, but my leader just kind of flops out without any real energy, often landing short with the leader loose and winding as opposed to straight out.

so I ask you guys this, what is causing these issues, and what can I do to correct it?
 

silver creek

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Ok guys, I need help bettering my cast. I have been trying to crisply cast from the elbow, keeping the reel close to my ear. Rod from 10:30ish to 2:30ish on back and forward cast. I have been getting a more powerful loading of the rod and tighter loop overall, leading to a bit more distance.

The issues I am having lately are this:
1. My loop is a bit too tight and my fly comes down and snags my floating line.
2. My floating line comes out to straight, but my leader just kind of flops out without any real energy, often landing short with the leader loose and winding as opposed to straight out.

so I ask you guys this, what is causing these issues, and what can I do to correct it?
Problem 1 is a tailing loop. There are lots of posts about tailing loops so see the search below.

https://www.google.com/#q=north+ame...+tailing+loop+site:www.theflyfishingforum.com

The second sounds like the cast is collapsing at the end, the result of too little power for the length of the cast.

The solution for both is a smooth application of acceleration/power to correct the tailing loop. Even if you apply too much power for the length of the cast but apply it smoothly, a tailing loop will not form. The excess power should cause the leader to fully extend and either bounce back or flip under itself (a tuck cast).

It would be helpful to know what YOU mean by "crisply cast from the elbow, keeping the reel close to my ear." I cannot visualize a casting stroke that keep the reel close to your ear during the entire cast. Can you post photos, or illustration, or videos of the rod stroke?

You will notice that in the rods stroke videos below, ALL 3 joints (wrist, elbow, AND shoulder) are energized and contribute to the cast. When you say "cast from the elbow, keeping the reel close to my ear," you are saying that you do NOT move the shoulder joint. You are performing an forearm - elbow joint assisted wrist cast. Modern casting technique uses all three joints and will add the shoulder joint depending on the distance of the cast.

You will notice that if you do move the forearm, you CANNOT keep the reel close to your ear. The ear or the side of the face can be the stop point of the back cast but the entire cast is not made by "keeping the reel close to my ear."

http://vimeo.com/132726013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfKpOJQDu9I
 
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pleasantvalley

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I can do some photos this week. What I was trying to describe is a focus on the elbow being the main fulcrum of the casting stroke, with very little wrist action. I keep my thumb in line with the rod, wrist forward but the rod not totally in line with the forearm, rod hand just slightly inside the shoulder joint, elbow slightly forward. I have been trying to focus on having a definite firm end of my stroke forward and backward to allow the rod to fully load.
 

silver creek

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I can do some photos this week. What I was trying to describe is a focus on the elbow being the main fulcrum of the casting stroke, with very little wrist action. I keep my thumb in line with the rod, wrist forward but the rod not totally in line with the forearm, rod hand just slightly inside the shoulder joint, elbow slightly forward. I have been trying to focus on having a definite firm end of my stroke forward and backward to allow the rod to fully load.
I am helping edit The Perfect Cast I. In the book Gary Borger describes the 3 joints used in fly casting - the wrist, elbow, and shoulder.

I think very little wrist action is misleading. The wrist is critical to the fly cast. When a thumb on top grip is used, the fly rod is lined up with the thumb. When the wrist is laid back, the thumb can point as far down as 4 o'clock. So the wrist must not be laid back all the way BUT it still must move to allow for the wrist flick that occurs before the rod stop. Without the wrist flick, the rod tip does not move out of the way of the trailing fly line and a tailing loop will result.

Remember that at the rod stop, the bent rod straightens AND elongate. The rod tip will extend ABOVE the level of the trailing fly line, resulting in a tailing loop. So the rod tip must be dipped down, out of the way of the fly line. The wrist flick does this.

A problem can occurs on the back cast when the thumb on top grip allows the wrist to take the rod angle to the horizontal. So the wrist cannot be locked through out the cast but it must be controlled.

The FFF Master Casting Clinic Study Guide discusses this wrist flick which controls loop size.

“The wrist is better suited for quick, final movements than for those requiring sustained, evenly applied force. ------- Other instructors believe this wrist action is so important that they emphasize it in their teaching. Lefty and Joan Wulff cast with different styles, yet both have stated that they use large muscles to provide force and direction to throw the line, but a late, quick wrist movement to control the size of the casting loop. ------- Longtime East Coast instructor Bill Cairns has similarly described this wrist action. Doug Swisher has taught it as a "micro-wrist" movement and Joe Humphreys as a "tap". ------ On the forward cast, I want to build in wrist action as part of the stop. To do this, I need to channel a student?s wrist movement into a late time frame within the cast.”

Therefore, at the hard stop, there must be a very slight tip of the rod tip down so that the fly line can clear the rod tip. The degree of this slight flip controls the loops size.

The illustration below is from pg 31 of Jason Borger's Nature of Fly Casting demonstrates that a small flip = a tight loop. "All else being equal, the more the rod tip is flipped away from the the Line Plane (Phase Two), the larger the line loop will be.



The use of a paint brush is a good way to learn this wrist flick or micro wrist. You want to stand in front of a wall and stop and flip so the water lands on the wall at about eye level. See this post:

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-cast/374464-paint-brush-fly-casting.html

A lot of practice is required to manage all the variables so a tight loop results. So practice a smooth casting stroke. Start with short casts and adjust your stroke to get a tight loop and then gradually lengthen the cast and your stroke.
 

bloomagoo

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I suspect that you are dropping your rod tip too low on your back cast and then overpowering your forward stroke to take up the slack. This will result in tailing loops and your leader piling. Try stopping your back cast at 1 o'clock rather than 2:30. This should give you a better load on your forward stroke.
 

silver creek

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Bloomagoo might be correct.
I had not considered that because you said, "a focus on the elbow being the main fulcrum of the casting stroke, with very little wrist action." If there truly is very little wrist action and "keeping the reel close to my ear," the rod tip should not go back too low.

But your perception of what you think you are doing and what is actually happening may not be accurate. Take a side view video of what you are actually doing.
 

pleasantvalley

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Yeah I have always had the problem of weaker back casts with the tip dropping a bit too low. That's why I have been trying to take out a lot of the wrist action. The flick forward makes sense and I'll give it a try. I'll try to get some film on it this week.

Thanks Guys!!
 

bigspencer

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Sounds like you're throwing across your body instead of backward and straight forward...in front of your rod hand....y/n? Keep the wrist firm but relax your whole arm during the stroke. By throwing to where your eyes are focused(in front of your body)....you open up the vertical plane(which should be a straight, narrow plane...backward and forward).
This is most always the case when your path of your forward cast is not straight ahead, but across...to where your eyes are focusing on! If your backcast is not directly over your head(eyes) or shoulder...but to the right(if righthanded) you want to throw your forward cast to the right of where your eyes are focused! I think if you simply straighten out your forward stroke with your backcast stroke...your line will stay in the plane of the rod and momentum will give it the zip it needs...

You're allowing too much left & right drifting of your wrist/hand area, in your forward cast.....the ONE thing on the forward cast your want is the flyline forming the loop DIRECTLY over the tip of your rod. If your line wavers out to the side of the vertical plane that your rod forms in its path forward..you lose most all of the momentum generated by the loaded rod.


$.01
 

wjc

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bloomago said:
I suspect that you are dropping your rod tip too low on your back cast and then overpowering your forward stroke to take up the slack
.

Agreed. And I would give ridliculous odds that the backcast just prior to the collapsed forward cast did not have enough energy to unroll completely in the air behind him.

Here is a quote form George Roberts' Blog at masterthecast.com


George Roberts said:
The caster who has never shown up for a lesson is the caster who has a solid back cast and a troubled forward cast. Not only has this person never arranged for a lesson—I’ve never seen this person at the casting pool at any of the fly fishing shows I’ve attended, nor have I run across this person while fishing.
I would work on that backcast and take a video from the side before and after a dozen or two practice sessions.
 
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