Am I breaking my wrist on my back cast? (PIC HEAVY)

[flyfisher117]

Finally made it out for the first time this year and this is really my first time fishing in a while, last summer I did some lake fishing but that wasnt the same. I took my girlfriend along to teach her but she also wanted to practice with her camera before an upcoming wedding photo shoot so I was able to get some pics of my cast.

I have always struggled with long casts. The line always gets messed up on my backcasts when throwing a lot of line. After looking through photos I noticed that my grip is odd but I also look like I break my wrist and move my arm at an odd angle. What does it look like to the more experienced? I know its partly because I am out of practice but could this be what is holding me back?







I was noticing here that my reel rolls 90 degrees I dont know why I do this but I noticed it.

 

[pnc]

From 2nd to last picture...... yes. Wrist is breaking.

What is your idea of longer casting. Angle of rod or tip is way low at end of cast for my idea of a long cast.

....... pc

 

[silver creek]

What is important is whether the rod tip travels in a straight line. Make your stops hard. Saying your back casts are messed up when you try long casts is not very descriptive of what is occurring when the photos do not show the line movement and loop formation.

I honestly cannot tell from the still photos because I cannot tell when the photo was actually taken. Let me take the following photo from your sequence as an example of what I mean.

If that photo was where you stopped on the backcast, it would appear you laid your wrist back. However, it the stop was earlier and you rotationally drifted the rod back, then the rod drift would explain the laid back wrist. Since the fly line seems well extended, I suspect it is rod drift but video is really needed.

See the example of rotational rod drift in the image below.

 

[flyfisher117]

From 2nd to last picture...... yes. Wrist is breaking.

What is your idea of longer casting. Angle of rod or tip is way low at end of cast for my idea of a long cast.

....... pc

Thanks Ya I wasnt really doing many false casts due to wind but I think the tip is so low cause I was finishing the cast, I dont really remember making more than 2 consecutive false casts other than to dry the hopper off a little. A long cast for me would be the very end of the useful casting distance for real world fishing on a river.

What is important is whether the rod tip travels in a straight line. Make your stops hard. Saying your back casts are messed up when you try long casts is not very descriptive of what is occurring when the photos do not show the line movement and loop formation.

I honestly cannot tell from the still photos because I cannot tell when the photo was actually taken. Let me take the following photo from your sequence as an example of what I mean.

If that photo was where you stopped on the backcast, it would appear you laid your wrist back. However, it the stop was earlier and you rotationally drifted the rod back, then the rod drift would explain the laid back wrist. Since the fly line seems well extended, I suspect it is rod drift but video is really needed.

See the example of rotational rod drift in the image below.

Thats the tought part I dont really know either, Maybe we can go to the park tomorrow and get a video of casting on the grass. I was just trying to get some portion of the back cast and some portion of the forwards cast and I was looking for pictures where you can at least sort of see the loops in the line to see if that tells any story.

I dont know how to describe it its just like on the back cast when I have a lot of line I am not getting the rod loaded and when I try and take the line forward it just does not have the energy to go all the way forwards. About halfway out it dies and lands on my shoulder.

 

[wjc]

I agree with Silver that it is probably drift from the trajectories of both the fly leg and the rod leg in that picture, the distance between them and the fact that they appear to be pretty parallel. But as he said, it's basically a guess.

For instance, in the sixth picture in the original post it looks as if you are or have been moving your line hand forward toward the cast during the presentation stroke, which would cause the rod to straighten too soon and rob you of power while also causing the rod to straighten too soon possibly creating a tailing loop. But considering you have good line tension in all the other photos, I would guess that the loop has already formed and you are just feeding line into the presentation a little early before the rod leg tension built up.

But, again, it's a guess. A video taken from the line hand side and showing your upper body and at least half of the rod would show what's happening. It is not that important to see the actual line. Knowing how each cast turned out would be helpful though as would be slow motion video.

It looks to me as if you are casting quite well.

 

[cb]

After looking through photos I noticed that my grip is odd but I also look like I break my wrist and move my arm at an odd angle.

Your are already a decent caster - but you should change you're grip immediately. I reckon it will transform your casting and help keep rod alignment on track so it does not twist.

I strongly recommend the three point Borger grip with the index finger slightly to the right of center.

Gary Borger » Blog Archive » Three Point Grip Part II

For you, I think it will be a game changer. Any wrist issue (if you have one) will be solved by this I think.

The grip will feel odd at first, but persist and it will become natural and I'm sure will help. You don't need much help to become a very good caster as clearly you have a feel for a fly rod. Just need tweaking.

Good luck!

 

[silver creek]

I am a fan of the three point grip as many of my previous posts will attest.

400 Bad Request
400 Bad Request
400 Bad Request
400 Bad Request

The three point grip will cure the laid back wrist at the stop of the backcast that frequently occurs with beginners who use the thumb on top grip. However, if you don't have that problem, I would first try to see what the problem really is.

Jason Borger has produced a video of the three point grip since it can be confused with the key grip and the finger on top grip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW8eeCH79Ko

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW8eeCH79Ko

At every fly casting demonstration, Gary teaches the Three Point Grip.

Here is the crowd during Gary's casting demonstration at the Pleasanton, CA show.

Gary Borger » Blog Archive » Somerset Fly Fishing Show 2016

Here is the crowd during Gary's casting demonstration at Somerset.

Gary Borger » Blog Archive » Somerset Fly Fishing Show 2016

 

[flyfisher117]

Your are already a decent caster - but you should change you're grip immediately. I reckon it will transform your casting and help keep rod alignment on track so it does not twist.

I strongly recommend the three point Borger grip with the index finger slightly to the right of center.

Gary Borger » Blog Archive » Three Point Grip Part II

For you, I think it will be a game changer. Any wrist issue (if you have one) will be solved by this I think.

The grip will feel odd at first, but persist and it will become natural and I'm sure will help. You don't need much help to become a very good caster as clearly you have a feel for a fly rod. Just need tweaking.

Good luck!

Ill have to give that a try! Ya I am pretty comfortable casting just feel like theres always a hole a little out of my range and when I try and go for it something goes wrong. I didnt realize my grip was so wonky till looking at the photos so I feel like working on that and making sure my wrist isnt breaking going back will help tremendously. I have tried the thumb on top and pointer finger ontop grips and they made me feel like I had no control but this 3 point grip seems to give you the control my bad habit of a grip has created for me.


Thanks for the links and videos silver creek

 

[Ard]

You did mention that this was your first day out casting this year correct? If that's the case then there may be a few bugs to work out but mine are seldom related to my wrist. As wrist action goes I have what some may describe as terrible wrist action when casting at ranges between 20 and 40 feet. Matter of fact the wrist is about all I use to preform such casts. When distance increases I must have a sort of internal Governor that kicks in and tightens up the wrist because I seem to get that fly to where I want it. Get a few more days on the water before you overthink things buddy.

 

[flyfisher117]

You did mention that this was your first day out casting this year correct? If that's the case then there may be a few bugs to work out but mine are seldom related to my wrist. As wrist action goes I have what some may describe as terrible wrist action when casting at ranges between 20 and 40 feet. Matter of fact the wrist is about all I use to preform such casts. When distance increases I must have a sort of internal Governor that kicks in and tightens up the wrist because I seem to get that fly to where I want it. Get a few more days on the water before you overthink things buddy.

Yup and last summer 90% of my fishing was high alpine lakes so I wasnt casting so much as staying out of view and just getting a fly on the water. Before that I wasnt really doing a lot of fly fishing due to college so I am definitely out of practice.

Im trying not to over analyze, it was also my first day out with the new Boron iiix so that was leaps and bounds a different rod than my old TFO. I was just looking at photos and noticed the odd wrist angles.

 

[just4grins]

Try standing sideways so you can see your own full cast. You'll see what's going on behind and can start dealing with it.

 

[fishordie]

Yo SC,

Great responses on this thread about your right wrist/hand. However, often times, the culprit tends to be the left or off hand. The last picture of your post may speak volumes in this regard. The amount of slack line between your left hand and the first guide may be indicative that the timing of your hauls may be off. Additionally, other photos show your left hand perhaps a bit too low and at angle a large angle to the stripper guide possibly revealing an improper timing to begin the haul. Lack of tension on the line thru the strokes often times is the culprit when I make a bad cast.

I am by no means a casting instructor but often times, for me, I find reaching a bit higher up with my left hand towards the stripper guide, pulling down more in line with the rod, preventing any slack line from being induced during the cast is the first thing I revisit when I find myself flopping longer casts. I then make sure my up/down stroke of my left hand, especially the up stroke, is strong and long without allowing any slack to build up. Slack between the haul hand and the stripper guide is always the enemy of any cast as it prevents the rod from loading properly or the line from accepting the majority of the force needed to load the rod in either direction. The end result is usually a funky cast that does not feel at all right while our loop tends to tail or not be crisp and tight.

Finally, a positive high forward stop when you release really gives way more control of what you want the fly to do as the line straightens out... especially as you add more twists and tricks to your fly presentation. In your photos it looks like you are driving your tip down towards the water with out the requisite higher stop. Of course, I cannot really tell in the pictures if you are actually hauling at all in the pictures but if you are not hauling then try moving your off hand closer to the reel to prevent slack should the motion of the rod not be mirrored by your off hand.

Anyway, just a thought.. You worst case scenario is you have found yourself in some beautiful surroundings..

Jamie

 

[silver creek]

Yo SC,

Great responses on this thread about your right wrist/hand. However, often times, the culprit tends to be the left or off hand. The last picture of your post may speak volumes in this regard. The amount of slack line between your left hand and the first guide may be indicative that the timing of your hauls may be off. Additionally, other photos show your left hand perhaps a bit too low and at angle a large angle to the stripper guide possibly revealing an improper timing to begin the haul. Lack of tension on the line thru the strokes often times is the culprit when I make a bad cast.

I am by no means a casting instructor but often times, for me, I find reaching a bit higher up with my left hand towards the stripper guide, pulling down more in line with the rod, preventing any slack line from being induced during the cast is the first thing I revisit when I find myself flopping longer casts. I then make sure my up/down stroke of my left hand, especially the up stroke, is strong and long without allowing any slack to build up. Slack between the haul hand and the stripper guide is always the enemy of any cast as it prevents the rod from loading properly or the line from accepting the majority of the force needed to load the rod in either direction. The end result is usually a funky cast that does not feel at all right while our loop tends to tail or not be crisp and tight.

Finally, a positive high forward stop when you release really gives way more control of what you want the fly to do as the line straightens out... especially as you add more twists and tricks to your fly presentation. In your photos it looks like you are driving your tip down towards the water with out the requisite higher stop.

Anyway, just a thought.. You worst case scenario is you have found yourself in some beautiful surroundings..

Jamie

I have a different interpretation of the last photo, which I have posted above. I do not think this photo was taken before a haul, at the start of the haul, or during a haul. I think this photo is taken after the rod stop when the caster is shooting line. If so, I think that is the reason for the slack line between the hand and the stripper guide. I do think that if the off hand was closer to the rod and therefore more in line with the stripper guide, the line could go father. HOWEVER, if this is done at the start of the shoot, this reduces the separation of the loose fly line from the reel, and makes it more likely that the line will jump up and catch the reel or the rod.

Near the end of the shoot which this appears to be, the off hand should be brought more in line with the stripper guide. So I agree that the off hand should be more in line with the stripper.

Note at 1:30 in the video below, Joan Wulff says the off and should be kept away from the rod. At 2:25 she demonstrates what happens when you release the line too early. It wraps around the rod and reel.

Joan Wulff Teaches Fly Casting: "Shooting Line" on Vimeo

Pete Kutzer of Orvis has a similar demo at the Orvis FF Learning Center. Note that at the start of the shoot, his off hand is away from the rod and the reel and only at the end of the shoot does he bring the line hand closer and in line with the stripping guide.

Shooting And Handling Line

What about a double haul and shooting line? Watch the video below beginning at about 5:18. Pet Kutzer demonstrates the haul, line shoot, and under the finger fly line transfer so he is ready to fish. Note that at the beginning of the line shoot, his shooting hand is behind the reel and away from the rod, to keep the shooting line from being entangled with the rod or the reel. Then Pete brings the line hand closer to the rod/reel and in line with the stripper guide.

Ask a Fly-Fishing Instructor VII: The Double Haul - YouTube

As to the second underlined comment about other photos showing the the off hand too low and at too large an angle to the stripper guide, I have found 2. One is the first photo in the series. The photo below demonstrates no bend in the rod so I think it is at the very end of the back cast and before the forward cast. Since the forward haul should begin some what later, during the forward cast, I do not think we can say line hand is in the wrong position at this time in the cast.

This is the next to last photo in the series, which also shows the line hand at an angle to the stripper guide. The rod appears to be slightly bent. I think he has drifted the rod back and is beginning the forward cast. Again, I cannot say what position his line hand will be when he actually begins the haul.

I think we are interpreting the series of photos differently. With still photos, we both could be wrong. That is why we need a video to place the photos in context.

 

[myt1]

I hate to be dense, but can you please explain the difference between "translational" and "rotational"?

I'm guessing "translational" is the front to back motion of the casting stroke.

I'm also guessing that the "drift" mentioned in the "translational" example is the amount the wrist breaks due to the momentum caused by the sudden stop of the back-cast, even though you are trying to keep your wrist stiff.

For what it is worth, my casting improved when I made a concerted effort to drop my right leg back a few inches (I'm right handed) and I started watching my arm and the line as I make my casts.

 

[silver creek]

I hate to be dense, but can you please explain the difference between "translational" and "rotational"?

I'm guessing "translational" is the front to back motion of the casting stroke.

Translation and rotation can refer to the casting stroke. During casting stroke we move the rod butt which also moves the rod tip. We also rotate the rod butt which is called rotation. Joan Wulff uses "loading move"￾ to describe translation and "power snap"￾ to describe the rod acceleration after the rod is loaded. The "snap"￾ is the rod rotation during the power snap that ends at the rod stop. She describes it at 1:30 in the double haul video below. Watch her snap/flip her wrist during the power snap. Note that translation and rotation are occurring together during the power snap.

Joan Wulff Teaches Fly Casting: "The Double Haul" on Vimeo

HOWEVER, I was referring to DRIFT which happens after the rod STOP. Technically, the fly cast ENDS at the rod STOP at the end of what Joan Wulff calls the power snap. DRIFT happens AFTER the rod STOP and BEFORE the next casting STROKE.

DRIFT is an advanced casting move and you don't have to drift the rod to perform a fly cast.

I'm also guessing that the "drift" mentioned in the "translational" example is the amount the wrist breaks due to the momentum caused by the sudden stop of the back-cast, even though you are trying to keep your wrist stiff.

No. Drift is not due to momentum of the back cast.

For maximum energy transfer of the bent rod potential energy to the fly line, the rod stop must be sudden and complete. DRIFT occurs after the stop and not during the stop.

I posted the image below in an earlier post of drift after the stop of a backcast, but before the forward cast begins. DRIFT is intentional REPOSITIONING the fly rod tip AFTER THE ROD STOP so the rod tip will have a longer path during the next cast. Drift lengthens the rod tip path for the next rod stroke. A longer rod tip path allow the catfly line

You can reposition the rod tip by ROTATION (tilting the rod - rotating the rod backward as in the upper example) or by TRANSLATION (moving the entire rod in the as lower example). Just as during Joan Wulff's rod stroke power snap, both rod translation and rod rotation can also occur simultaneously during rod drift.

Perhaps this will explain drift better than I can. Read the article by Al Kyte on Rod Drift.

"Whether you slide your hand back, increase the rod angle, or combine the two, your drift is moving the rod tip back and/or down. Moving the rod tip back provides more stroke length through which it can move forward again during the forward cast. Setting up this longer path for additional force is the most frequently mentioned advantage of drift. The advantages of lowering the tip are often overlooked. Drifting the tip down in back widens the casting angle or arc, which makes it easier to force additional bend into the rod, yet also keep this lowered tip moving along a straight path. Dropping the rod tip even lower in back on the last back cast also sets up an upward-angled forward path for the farthest line carry."

Al Kyte notes the different technique of Lefty Kreh and Ed Jawoworski. Ed drifts only with rod rotation and Lefty does both. See the first illustration in the document below.

http://flyfishersinternational.org/...y Drift.Al Kyte.pdf?ver=2012-02-23-130104-957

 

[myt1]

Got it...I think.

Sooooo, after coming to a stop at the end of the backstroke you then consciously move, or "drift", the rod tip back a few more inches, either by using transitional, or rotational forces, or both. Then you start the forward cast.

I'm heading out to my driveway now to give it a try.

Thanks.

 

[silver creek]

Got it...I think.

Sooooo, after coming to a stop at the end of the backstroke you then consciously move, or "drift", the rod tip back a few more inches, either by using transitional, or rotational forces, or both. Then you start the forward cast.

I'm heading out to my driveway now to give it a try.

Thanks.

The opposite of DRIFT is CREEP. Rod creep can lead to tailing loops.

Creep is the forward repositioning of the fly rod in the direction of the next cast, before the actual power stroke begins. Basically the caster anticipates the start of the next a cast and begins moving the rod before the actual cast. Pete Kutzer explains rod creep in the video below:

How to fly Fish:: Avoiding Rod Creep - YouTube

This "creep" or early rod movement shortens the rod stroke and the caster tries to get more power into too short a stroke path. The caster "jabs" or shocks the rod in an attempt to increase line speed. This sudden application of power bends the rod ===> shortens the rod ===> dips the rod tip ===> concave rod tip path ===> tailing loop.

"1. Forward Creep:

The main cause of tailing loops (in Texas) is Forward Creep. Forward Creep is beginning the forward stroke too early. Anticipating the forward cast would be a nice way of looking at it. Either way it sucks. Your backcast is travelling backwards, your rod tip is travelling forwards, the backcast straightens pulling the rod tip under the Straight Line Path and you throw a classic tailing loop."

Tailing Loops - description and cure

Creep is discussed as a cause of tailing loops in the FFF discussion of tailing loops:

"There is one more common casting error that leads to tailing loops, it is called "creep". At the end of either cast, but especially the back cast, it is very important to leave the rod where it stopped, or even drift farther back. This sets up the next cast and helps to get a long, smooth stroke. If the caster "creeps" the rod forward while waiting for the line to straighten, the stroke for the next cast is shortened. Shortening the stroke without reducing the power applied will result in a downward tip path which leads to tailing loops. It is very important to make sure that you leave the rod where it stops (or even drift the rod farther back) while waiting for the line to straighten."

http://www.flyfishersinternational.....Bruce Richards.pdf?ver=2012-02-23-130107-507

Rod creep can cancel the advantage of rod drift. Since we drift the rod to get a longer rod stroke and longer cast, the anticipation of the longer cast can cause the caster to creep. So be mindful of rod creep when you try for extra distance and you are get tailing loops.

 

[bigspencer]

Hi...sorry I'm eons late....
Your titled question being about wrist action in the backcast... The question is insignificant....for the size of the stream and distance to trout holding/feeding areas a medium or wide loop on your backcast is going to be insignificant. What IS important is your forearm/wrist/hand movement from the endpoint in the backcast..through the transition from there into the forward cast....and really you don't need to be holding a fully rigged rod to improve here, or for that matter, most any part of the cast with concerns to your rod hand. In looking at the last? image of your extended backcast....what is important is the TOP portion of the loop. From the looks of the wild line on top you're flailing away a little too much instead of gradual, constant speed-up...and with your forearm and hand so extended out at a quartered attitude...that's the attitude that can be more prone to curveball motions... After a lot of practice one can often throw a quartered(45deg) attitude with some efficiency but to do it your need a really straight & firm wrist-hand attitude with the forearm...which I clearly don't see. It's a tough attitude to keep everything clean, so why do it? Much easier to quarter it on the backcast, but then come up straight over into the forward cast. Actually it'll be much easier to adapt to a new forearm-wrist attitude..and keep backcast loop and forward loop close ...imho... Just rambling thoughts... You clean things up pretty fast.

 

[ibookje]

I'm a FFF instructor since 1994.
It's not easy to see what you're doing wrong (not much) by looking at a few random pictures.

The wrist is often less of a problem with intermediate level casters.
The last two pictures does show what happens with 'side arm casters': rotating of the body during the cast, especially the back cast. Look at the position of the sling pack between both pictures.

By rotating the body the casting strokes goes in a curve (seen from above). For short distance this doesn't cause much of a problem. With longer casts it does as the length of the stroke magnifies the off the track traveling of the tip of the rod (and fly line).

A fast and easy solution is changing your stance a bit. Put your right foot a bit forward rather than the left. This stance will prevent your body to rotate to the right.

A more permanent solution is to change your casting stroke to a more up right stroke (no need to go completely upright). This casting style doesn't magnify as much as a side way casting style. When casting more distance you'll need to make your stance to a more 'open' stance (diagonal) to allow the arm movement travel 'through' the shoulder rather than 'crashing into your shoulder'.

Hope this helps!