Talent, Instruction, Attitude, Equipment?

[karstopo]

So fly casting instructors I was just wondering why are some people better at casting than others and why so many don't get it very well?

How much is due to differences in inherent talent?

How big a role does attitude, perseverance, and practice figure into developing a cast or skill?

How important is matching the equipment to the individual?

Do you, as an instructor, know pretty quickly with an individual student whether or not they will ever be any good at fly casting?

I suppose the main reason I ask is that I have friends and acquaintances that started down the road to learning to fly cast and fly fish but fly fishing and difficulties with casting and fishing eventually turned them away from fly fishing. I sort of wondered what might have derailed the process. At least some had instruction of some kind. Maybe if there is something I can spot ahead of time I can say the right things to steer the individual towards or away from ever trying to learn to fly fish.

With enough people I know not staying with it, I've lost any enthusiasm towards proselytizing for the true religion. I'm still very enthusiastic about fly fishing personally, just not so much towards spreading the word.

 

[cb]

So fly casting instructors I was just wondering why are some people better at casting than others and why so many don't get it very well?

How much is due to differences in inherent talent?

How big a role does attitude, perseverance, and practice figure into developing a cast or skill?

How important is matching the equipment to the individual?

Do you, as an instructor, know pretty quickly with an individual student whether or not they will ever be any good at fly casting?

These are really nice questions!

Everyone can learn to fly cast but just like all other sports - sporty-people get it far quicker than non-sporty people. If they can juggle even better!

Non sporty people will just take longer to master the art - but probably will stay with it longer too. It certainly is not a barrier.

The next big barrier for sporty males is power/testosterone! (teaching them to use their 'other' hand - helps!) The sporty lady is the easiest to teach by far!

Balanced tackle does help for sure and a line on the heavy side compared to the rod rating helps with 'feel' but understanding the basic mechanics is more important.

I think learning golf, tennis and many other sports is much more difficult than fly casting!

To keep them hooked - make sure they hook something - take them to somewhere easy. Even after 40 years of fishing the 'take' for me is still a thrill when it happens!

 

[JoJer]

I think there are some people who cannot ever learn to cast, just as I will never learn to ply a musical instrument-I'm just not right and left hand coordinated enough. Even Lefty says he can teach anyone-except his wife- to cast.
That said, I think there are very few people who couldn't learn to cast well enough to fish some water somewhere if they are motivated.
I grew up with a kid who had no sense of rhythm. He couldn't tap his fingers and keep time with music. Consequently, he couldn't walk to the line and swing his arm so as to roll a bowling ball. Didn't keep him from excelling in martial arts later on. So he always bowled awkwardly, but people stopped laughing at him.

 

[pnc]

Hey Karstopo,
Think you said it. What matters are the individuals personal traits.
Yes, people learn to cast a different rates. Those that learn the fastest are those that relate to what they are now doing. A lot of what people have done through their lives will influence this.
Two examples...... first a woman in 50's. Problem was breaking wrist. Bad , line would go in pile fore & aft. Or visa-versa. This woman uses a computer & mouse all day for years. This went on until one day I had idea of going to bowling shop for a wrist brace. Then asked if she had any duct tape around. Why? Cause I gonna tape your hand & wrist to the rod. Didn't , but I was getting that frustrated. Before seeing her again a couple of days later she solved the problem. Put rubber band around handle. Put hand through rubber band. Any bending of wrist pulled on rubber band. Told me duct tape would hurt coming off. Still with rubber bands but she's got it working.
Second. , a younger woman in 20's. Explained , layed out line , handed her rod. First cast... PERFECT !..... next, the same. In 45 mins this girl was doing things that take most years to learn. Never saw anything like it. Later learned of what probably led to this. As a child & young teen she was into gymnastics. The tumbling with ribbons that don't touch the ground. This girl.... excuse.... young woman understood line control from the word go.
I know the feeling you describe. It's one of despair. I am currently trying to get a friend involved. That.could go either way. Got him rod reel line. Gave him flies. Only thing he's bought is a fly box. Guess he didn't like the little Plano's I gave him. Still I just don't know. Feel like he might just hand me everything back one day.

...... pc

 

[sawinredneck]

Subscribing in hopes to learn something.

 

[Hirdy]

I'll come at this from two sides: I'm still new enough at this to remember the extreme difficulties I had when trying to teach myself but I'm now an instructor, so I can see where people struggle and why.

I picked up fly fishing in January, 2011. The reason I sought my certification in casting instruction was because there were no instructors in the whole state of Western Australia. I had to teach myself, and it was HARD! I thought I knew what I was learning, and I thought I was doing all the right moves. However, my results told me otherwise. Tails everywhere, a bout of tendonitis, no distance, lots of frustration!

I persisted for 3 years without a lesson. Sure, I could reach 60' easily, but it wasn't pretty and it was tiring. Any wind and I was out of the game, and Perth is extremely windy. I had been a good sportsman all my life and knew I was well coordinated, but I just could not get this to work properly. Then a well known instructor visited Perth for a weekend of casting instruction. I jumped at the chance and he immediately told me a few of the mistakes I was making and how I could fix them.

See, I knew all the theory, but I was not picking where I was deviating from good form. Videos of myself didn't help because I wasn't seeing the clues.

I had two further lessons and the rest fell into place. Lots of reading and huge amounts of practice has got me to where I am today. In October 2018, I'll be sitting for my MCI level certification, so I have heaps more to do!

The things that I needed to become a very good caster were:

* Lessons! I wish I had the chance to take them earlier. They are vital. The caster who teaches himself to cast has a fool for a teacher.
* Practice! 20 to 30 minute sessions, 4 - 6 times a week, practicing specific aspects only.
* Gear? Not really important in the scheme of things, except for the line. Practicing with a short head line like the Rio OBS is counterproductive. Get a bright DT line and learn to increase your carry whilst maintaining good loops.
* Previous experience: Unlearning bad habits seems to be a problem. Those who struggle most are the ones who have been doing something wrong for the longest time. Spin fishing or fly casting badly for a few decades usually point to "problem students". (These guys can often be taught to cast more effectively with their non-dominant hands because they don't have bad habits to leave behind with that side of their body.)
* Talent? No such thing. Casting is not something that we are born to do: we learn it. (And we can learn it with either or both hands.)
* Attitude? Yep, it takes a certain sort of bull-headedness to persist with this most frustrating of fishing techniques. A refusal to give up is a common thread.​

I think the most important factor by far is to seek lessons from a certified instructor as early as possible (not a well-meaning friend*). Doing so gets a caster past the steepest part of the learning curve in the shortest amount of time and gets them casting to fishing distances immediately. It provides a good foundation on which all other developments can be built upon. As I said, I wish I had been offered lessons much sooner than 3 years into the journey.

Cheers,
Graeme

*Well-meaning friends may know how to very cast well, but most do not know why they cast so well and fewer know how to teach what they are doing. Going through the certification taught me many aspects about casting that I didn't know of, and it taught me to teach them. We don't get that certification unless we can prove to highly experienced teachers that we know what we're talking about.

 

[brokeoff]

Please, don't forget, Michael Jordan didn't make varsity the first time he tried out.

 

[toothybugs]

I'm working toward my CCI now and will test when I can finally get the opportunity, likely early 2018, but after successfully teaching a few people the things I've come to notice usually include:

Decent, balanced equipment (to Graeme's point, OBS lines aren't as useful for a newbie as an actual line)

Patience, especially in the student.

Genuine desire in the student to learn, because they'll be receptive to coaching. This window may be short if someone is impatient but a calm instructor seems to be able to ease a student's anxieties.

Natural talent has a lot to do with how they pick up on things. I'm not terribly sporty, but I'm very analytical and patient and a bit artistic so I stuck it out and figured out how to cast, including hauling, on my own. I have taken 2 lessons in my life, the first was with my local fly shop and the guy asked why I was taking his class. The second was with an extremely influential and known voice in the flyfishing world when I asked one question and ended up with more than an hour of his one-on-one coaching and some great lessons. The reason he gave me his time, in his words, was because my tracking was perfect. Otherwise he'd have suggested plane control and walked away. Nope, he had to run to another speaking engagement or we likely would have had some more time.

Lastly, practice is utterly critical, even for me these days. I'm up to... 21 years now (yikes) and after taking some time off, I can still cast well but not as well as I'd like. A few tails, a few yards short of where I want to be, etc. Putting a few sessions in on the grass this summer cured most of that and I just felt things get better. I'd like to keep a line in my hands as it keeps me happier too.

I think anyone with the physical capability to sling a rod and line can become a flyfisher, if not at least a good one. But I think it takes drive, talent, and practice to become "expert" and incredible natural talent to become world-class.

 

[shadowwalker]

If you cant teach a person to become competent with a fly rod without using the word 'CASTING' during the lesson, your in no position to make judgments of other instructors. As you have no appreciation of what your teaching to who.

 

[pnc]

If you cant teach a person to become competent with a fly rod without using the word 'CASTING' during the lesson, your in no position to make judgments of other instructors. As you have no appreciation of what your teaching to who.

What ? Don't get last part.

........ pc

Prior post pointed out two examples of women whose prior life has influenced rate of learning. Without rehashing all , let me say this. If you were a little kid that could do fancy things with a ribon tied to a stick, while rolling around on a mat. Fly lines are a piece of cake !
As in everything inherent traits can affect learning. Some are better coordinated than others , some smarter. Both of these could be considered talent. Or athleticism.
Although I would recommend instruction for those starting out. It is not a necessity. Videos galore nowdays can help process.
Saw the term "world class" applied to this. "World class" as in as good as anyone ? After more than 3 decades you meet people as good if not better. Without their names being on anyones mind or lips. The WC term applied to fly fishing. Only means something to someone that cares.
One of the local clubs holds a casting comp every year for all clubs or anyone interested in attending. As with other such club events. Many of the stations (tests of casting), are far harder than anything in so called big time events. Last year distance station was tough. Hard cross wind took all but 3 out of bounds. Winner , probably break in wind. Distance of 110'. Year before would not have qualified for finals. Regular (not more than 100') fly line. Landing in 10' corridor. Year before 147'. What's the world record & line ? I don't know..... anybody ?
Over time one continues to improve. As does ones perception of abilities. Because of injury to right when starting out. Learned to cast with left. In a less strenuous or taxing way. Right got better & its been both since. I was obsessed with 100' back then. Ego, whatever it was. Took a few years & I was doing it with both hands. Thinking now I'm something. Yeaaaaaaars later...... right line would have sped things up back then. Would not use an overweight line for such again. But I was determined to do so back then. When I did not understand the dynamics of different lines. Now I can throw as much with either hand without hauling. Most of my hauling is for short short casts. Throw way more line with spliced lines , again with no hauling. What I once thought proficient never came close to what it means now.
I think many starting out make things hard on themselves. Instructions eliminate such. As being a source of quick knowledge.
Practice as with anything sharpens skills. Once I practiced. Maybe I still should. But I call it play now. Do it as much as possible. Just make a game out of it. Pick different targets. Use different casts. Throw loops at/through hulla hoop from different angles.
Make learning fun. You'll find more time for practice. Be more relaxed. And get more out of it.

....... pc

 

[gpwhitejr]

I think about these questions a lot. I have the same guitar teacher as Trey Anastasio, but the outcome has been, well, let's just say a bit different. I bet he practiced a lot more than I do.

---------- Post added at 07:30 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:04 AM ----------

Fascinating article on the topic:


Talent: A difference that makes a difference | Neuroanthropology

 

[shadowwalker]

Its very simple really. It's less important what an instructor knows as it is what a student hears. If I say blue but the student understands blue as yellow, who's confused ? The student heard Blue, you said blue and yet the student is thinking yellow because your blue is his yellow. Now ask yourself who is wrong? You really need to know the answer in order to be an effective instructor.

 

[dynaflow]

So many excellent replies to a great thread.I also live a long way from anyone who could have given me lessons,so I taught myself,and I know these few things.Firstly TALENT...IMHO there is such a thing as natural talent,and by that I mean that if you take easily to hand/eye co-ordination sports like Tennis,Table Tennis or even surfing,you get the basics more easily....the finer points can come later.INSTRUCTION...communication is the key, like shadowwalker and pnc point out.You must be able to see basic errors and demonstrate the remedy. ATTITUDE is all...focusing completely on the task at hand.Keep to the casting essentials...follow a straight path,don't bend the wrist too much,let the rod do the work,etc....EQUIPMENT...use good gear,it makes a world of difference! Give someone a **** guitar & they may well give it up before they get interested
P.S.I left out muscle memory!

 

[gpwhitejr]

,let the rod do the work

So true. Ironically, I started casting farther when I stopped trying to cast farther, know what I mean?

 

[pnc]

So true. Ironically, I started casting farther when I stopped trying to cast farther, know what I mean?

I suppose an individual could look at it as ironic. It is unfortunate that so many go through what you described. Limitations usually come from self imposed mind sets. Often over muscling will put waves in line. Which will actually shorten casts.

....... pc

 

[shadowwalker]

I suppose an individual could look at it as ironic. It is unfortunate that so many go through what you described. Limitations usually come from self imposed mind sets. Often over muscling will put waves in line. Which will actually shorten casts.

....... pc

People over power because instructors tell them to. Most students know how to "cast" , they cast a spinning rod, a casting rod, a spin-casting rod. Then along comes a fly rod and casting is the last thing you want to do. Casting other than a fly rod,= definition of casting= a hard forward thrusting motion to a sudden stop, thus propelling and appliance to draw the line from the reel in a single forward direction. Line must be near fully retrieved in order to repeat a presentation of said appliance. Not so a fly rod, quite the opposite in fact. IF you say up is down and down is up , right is left and left is right then you must believe casting is casting no matter what rod I hold. Problem was identified to me by my students, I just couldn't make them believe that casting meant casting. Bunch of non conformist if you ask me. However in time I learned to stop using the word casting with students as they seemed unwilling to spend years learning what I teach them in minutes. I do a little demonstration of casting with a fly rod , here's how it goes. I strip twenty of so feet of line off the fly rod in a pile behind me in a sort of line puddle. No fair stretching it out if you try this. (I don't recommend trying this) then I make a typical cast as if I were holding a spinning rod. Of course I get hit in the back of the head. some laugh some cringe, all get the point when I ask, are you sure you want to learn how to 'cast' a fly rod ? Reasons I will never be a, 'Casting Instructor', it hurts to teach it honestly.

 

[pnc]

Problem with the word casting when teaching fly casting. Is that most people don't understand how to cast. Any kind of rod. Worse if they fish & they think they know how to cast.
Line being straightened first is critical to any type of rod properly loading before cast is made. How many people using casting or spinning gear do you see pre loading ? Few if any will swing rod back to straighten line & cast. Whether lure or fly line same principles apply. Load the rod.
So even though using the right term. In this case cast or casting. Using it can be of consequence. Depending on who's being instructed.

....... pc

 

[Hirdy]

So pc, what word are you using if not "casting"? What are you calling the action we're using when someone comes to you for instruction in placing a fly where it needs to be?

(I fully understand the dilemma, just after your solution to it ...)

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[dynaflow]

I suppose technically it's "casting" even if it's really "throwing" if we're talking about spin fishing or launching bait on a 12' rod into the surf.It's just that we've come to recognize casting as learning to load a rod....if you get my drift

 

[shadowwalker]

So pc, what word are you using if not "casting"? What are you calling the action we're using when someone comes to you for instruction in placing a fly where it needs to be?

(I fully understand the dilemma, just after your solution to it ...)

Cheers,
Graeme

The solution is very simple, tell your student the truth. Your going to help them understand how to project a plastic coated string by use of a lever. As an instructor is that not what your there to do? Draw the line, form an aim the loop, project the line in a controlled and decided manner. Draw the line, form the loop, draw the line, form the loop. Words mean things, students will deliver what you ask of them, they assume you know what your doing. If you talk to a student the same way you talk to another instructor they will most likely remain confused for some time. If they knew what you meant they would be the instructor. First learn as a teacher , then teach as a student.