Help casting intruders

[dcfoster]

Recently I had a horrible day out on the river casting intruders . I've cast big poppers and mice/frogs along with fairly large size deceivers/clousers. I've learnt that I have to slow down the cast and open up the loop. I've also learnt about constant tension casts (the belgian cast?) which has helped a lot. However, the other day was absolutely horrible.

I was using a 9wt rod with a 9wt sinking tip line (24ft head) along with a 9ft fluorocarbon 1x leader. I was also using a duncan knot for the first time which I was told was good for indicators/streamers since it allowed them to move more naturally. Is there anything wrong with that equation or is the problem solely with my casting (which I know is highly likely!).

Thanks kindly...

 

[rangerrich99]

You're probably using too long a leader. And I don't streamer fish a lot, so take this with a grain of salt, but I rarely use leaders longer than 5 feet when I fish streamers.

Unfortunately that's about all the advice I have for you. But don't worry, prettysoon the resident streamer guys will put their two cents in and be more helpful.

 

[bigjim5589]

I posted a reply to your other question about leaders & tried to cover this question too as best I could. I also am suggesting a shorter leader & tippet may help.

 

[flytie09]

I see a few items dc that you need to look into .... there is still a lot of info we don't know like where you're fishing, are you fishing std vs micro intruders, water speed and width to tell you exactly what to do but I'll make some assumptions....

First off the rod length/type...... intruders are large flies that create a lot of drag during your cast..... you are going to want to look at a switch rod. You say you used a 9 WT... what was the length? I'd say you'd be better suited to try a 11' - 12' 8 WT switch rod. Options abound for these....Switch rods are perfect for small to mid sized rivers and jumbo flies. It has to do with having the ability to create enough load in the rod (force) to turn over your total package (fly/tippet/leader/line).

Secondly is your line... you say 9 WT 24' sink tip line....... I'm not sure this is your best choice. I would suggest a floating Skagit short line that is within the grain window of your rod. These are lines with large diameters and have enough mass and create enough surface tension during your cast to load your rod to turn over large flies like intruders. WF lines can't cut the mustard. Even the newer Steelhead/Salmon tapers can't do it. There are tables on the web explaining a particular manufacturer's rod and grain window rating to pair with it.

Thirdly is your cast.... the Skagit cast style was developed together with the intruder fly. It is a power sustained anchor cast with a compact stroke that uses the surface tension of the line and water to create enough load to cast intruders. It's a very simple cast to learn. You can learn it enough in a couple hours to be successful.

Lastly is your leader.... it's not the length of the leader....it is the leader type. Casting larger flies requires using leaders that have mass to them. Fluoro or mono leaders are not it. You're going to want to look at using a 10' T material. This is a tungsten compound coated leader that is a larger diameter (to use surface tension) and sinks like a rock. It is part of any Skagit system for casting intruders.

I could blather on and on about this.... I suggest addition reading and listening.....

April Vokey sat down with Jerry French where he explains the intruder fly and skagit line evolution.
- part 1 - YouTube (intruders)
- part 2 - YouTube (skagit lines)

Why not led the Jedi master show it to you..... Mr Ed Ward who helped developed the intruder fly and Skagit line and casting style - D-Loop Spey Casting: Skagit Spey Casting with Ed Ward

Deneki has some great reference material - All About Spey Rigging | All You Need To Learn to Start Spey Fishing

And Mr Charles sums up the whole Scandi/Skagit mystery very well:
- part 1 - YouTube
- part 2 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MktnIRpnaQ

I wish it was easier..... but it takes some research.

If you're using micro-intruders....... this changes things......

Good luck.....

ft09

 

[dennyk]

All great advice on your replys. To start simple I would shorten the leader to 5'. The point of a sink tip line is to sink the fly, with the 9' leader the fly line will be sinking faster then your leader and fly. Try that with the Belgian cast you have been using, that combination has worked well for me.

Denny

 

[ia_trouter]

I have found long sink tip lines on heavier sized rods difficult to use. Lifting them off the water can be really extra tough with a big fly tied on. As others have mentioned a shorter leader may help. If not, the next logical step for me would be to try to cast the line with a tiny fly. Just enough to keep from snapping the line excessively. I ended up doing this on a 9WT rod recently. A rod I can cast a big fly with just fine with a floating line. I eventually determined the sink tip line was just a little heavy for the rod and my casting ability, and I trimmed it for a much better cast. There is really no going back after you trim a line so just a few feet to start, then dial it in slowly. Until you can pull the line and fly off the water and get some line speed on the back cast, you are doomed to a very sloppy cast. My preference is a sinking tip or a sinking leader. They are far more adjustable than an integrated sinking tip and can be used on all my rods of appropriate size to adjust for water condition, whether moving water or a lake.

Bottomline is it takes considerable practice to cast a weighted line and big fly. IMO it is much more difficult than a floating line.

 

[flytie09]

Go to a good fly shop up there. Tell them what you got... what you're trying to do and they will set you up with the proper set-up.

Like everything in life....... there are a million ways to skin a cat.

The belgian cast I'm not familiar with... but from what I see it still requires back cast room. Guys I see demonstrating it are on a skiff boat or in the ocean..... no trees around.

You can chuck and duck it if you wanted to....but it's not so fun..... If you want to be able to actually cast and swing big intruders then you've got the wrong set up. You're going to struggle and eventually give up knowing that there is a system designed around these type flies to make it easier.

Smaller streamers, nymphs and ESLs.... yeah ok you're ok with what you have as you saw first hand....... Double haul, roll cast, etc all day......

I struggled myself for years until I changed my approach.

ft09

 

[dcfoster]

I posted a reply to your other question about leaders & tried to cover this question too as best I could. I also am suggesting a shorter leader & tippet may help.

Thanks for both of your replies. I think I'm going to go with the shorter leader and tippett and see how that goes. I'm going to be using it with a dry line tomorrow so we'll see what happens!


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---------- Post added at 09:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:37 PM ----------

Go to a good fly shop up there. Tell them what you got... what you're trying to do and they will set you up with the proper set-up.



Like everything in life....... there are a million ways to skin a cat.



The belgian cast I'm not familiar with... but from what I see it still requires back cast room. Guys I see demonstrating it are on a skiff boat or in the ocean..... no trees around.



You can chuck and duck it if you wanted to....but it's not so fun..... If you want to be able to actually cast and swing big intruders then you've got the wrong set up. You're going to struggle and eventually give up knowing that there is a system designed around these type flies to make it easier.



Smaller streamers, nymphs and ESLs.... yeah ok you're ok with what you have as you saw first hand....... Double haul, roll cast, etc all day......



I struggled myself for years until I changed my approach.



ft09

Funny enough I did go to a fly fishing store and that's where I got the 9 foot leader and the intruder so perhaps the problem isn't with the equipment but with me!


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[Hirdy]

I've been holding off answering this one, but nobody has asked the question I want an answer to yet: How do you define horrible?

By which I mean, sure, you had a bad day, but what was actually happening with your cast and what were you trying to achieve? I currently have no information about the problem.

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[dcfoster]

I've been holding off answering this one, but nobody has asked the question I want an answer to yet: How do you define horrible?

By which I mean, sure, you had a bad day, but what was actually happening with your cast and what were you trying to achieve? I currently have no information about the problem.

Cheers,
Graeme

Thanks for asking! There were two problems. One, the rod kept getting shocked even through I was trying to use the continual tension cast. And second, the fly (the intruder) kept hitting the rod on the back cast and even managed to twist itself around the rod more than one. This is after a year of decent casting where I had eliminated almost all tailing loops (and more importantly wind knots).

Like I said previously though, I know I'm not the greatest caster, but I thought at least if I rule out any problems with the gear (e.g. a leader that is too light or too long for the fly) then I know what I'm dealing with).

Hope this helps!

 

[Hirdy]

Okay, that does indeed help a bit.

Without actually seeing the cast, it sounds like you were pausing on the back cast, which in turn, stops the cast from being a "constant tension" cast. The leader straightens out after the pause and the heavy fly thumps against the line at the end of its tether.

The Belgian cast (AKA constant tension or oval cast) is made without ever stopping the rod during the back cast. It may slow down, but it never stops. The tip basically describes the shape of a rugby, gridiron or Aussie Rules ball.

The line also must come under the rod tip's path on the back cast and over it on the front cast. If you're letting the line do this, the fly will never hit the rod nor will the leader wrap around it.

There's a good video out there somewhere showing Lefty Kreh casting a sinking line, or showing someone how to do it. That's the cast you want, so find that video. (Edit: Scrap that last - this video will be a good one to learn from.)

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[clsmith131]

Sometimes this can simply be a result of fatigue and frustration. For me, if I throw a bad cast, I tend to hurry my next one and compromise my technique. Without trying to get too specific, or try to breakdown and correct everything you are doing, I would just say: Concentrate on the "feel" of your cast and mechanics, don't rush yourself: remember that you came out to enjoy yourself and not stress over something that's supposed to give you joy. Also, trust the decisions you made on your gear, and trust your technique. A lot of times, I listen to the advice of others and abandon what has worked for me in the past because I've had a bad string of luck.
That being said, I fish streamers almost exclusively, and if I'm hitting the rod I try to focus on lifting the line straight up off the water with a crisp end to my stroke to keep the heavier fly nice and elevated. Don't try to lift too much line off the water. I like to cast off to the side a little. With sinking line, i focus on strong hauls and try to limit my false casting.

Hope this helps
Chad