Casting pike flies with a 5wt

[dcfoster]

I was on a road trip with my 5wt rod and came across a spot that had bass and Pike. So that I thought I'd tie on a double jointed pike fly (a sex dungeon). Well needless to say, it didn't go well.

Could someone explain to me what happens (physics wise) when you cast a fly that is too big for your rod? There were two things I noticed. One is that I couldn't cast that far. The second thing I noticed is that when I went to do my double haul there was no pull or drag on my backcast (that helps bring your hand back up to the reel after your first haul).

Also, is it best just to skip the Pike flies if all you have is a 5wt or is there a trick that you can use to help make it work?

Thanks!

 

[sjkirkpa]

Others here know a lot more about the physics and mechanics of casting than I do so I will let them handle the details about casting.

But some of the largest pike I have caught were on #6 sculpin patterns, which can easily be handled on a 5wt. So no need to go really big for pike. Just get the fly in front of their noses!

 

[huronfly]

At the end of every stroke the big fly will be shock loading the rod, and killing any energy you might have had already in the rod. Look into Belgian casting, it's more of an elliptical cast that keeps the line and fly moving fluid. Remember you need mass to move mass, a 5 weight line is not going to move much mass...

 

[bigjim5589]

There have been many volumes written about the mechanics & physics of casting a fly rod. I won't try to write it here, and there are others who could explain it better than I can anyway.

You just have to understand, that all rods have limits, and as huronfly said you need mass to move mass. Attempting to go beyond the limits of the rod, usually doesn't work very well, particularly when the fly is either a lot heavier or has a lot of air resistance compared to what the rod weight is designed to handle. 5 wt's are not often conducive to casting Pike flies.

However, there are ways to cast a larger fly with a less than ideal rod. I know a fellow who uses a 5 wt to toss 12" flies for Stripers. He uses a 9 wt line, and his flies are sparsely tied flat wing streamers tie on 4/0 hooks. These flies are not bulky, yet give the illusion of a larger fly. He's still using the mass of the line, and the rod handles it because the fly is not heavy or very air resistant. Not all 5 wt's, like any other rod weight are the same either.

I've cast Striper flies too on my 6 wt., with 6 wt line. These are similar flatwing type flies on 2/0 hooks, and about 6" long. I couldn't cast them great distances, 40 to 50 ft, which is a normal distance for me with smaller flies on the same rod, but that was the limit & all I needed. Not my ideal setup, as I would prefer an 8 wt or heavier rod, but it did what I needed.

IMO, it might have been best to skip the Pike flies & use the biggest flies you could cast with the rod, and see what you could catch. Sometimes, you have to go with what you've got & see what happens, but you still have to stay within the limits of the gear.

I'll bet you won't have tried to toss a big 10" Pike lure with ultra light spin gear, so the analogy is similar.

 

[dcfoster]

Good advice. Thanks!


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[silver creek]

I was on a road trip with my 5wt rod and came across a spot that had bass and Pike. So that I thought I'd tie on a double jointed pike fly (a sex dungeon). Well needless to say, it didn't go well.

Could someone explain to me what happens (physics wise) when you cast a fly that is too big for your rod? There were two things I noticed. One is that I couldn't cast that far. The second thing I noticed is that when I went to do my double haul there was no pull or drag on my backcast (that helps bring your hand back up to the reel after your first haul).

Also, is it best just to skip the Pike flies if all you have is a 5wt or is there a trick that you can use to help make it work?

Thanks!

One of the first rules of fly fishing/casting is that you are casting the fly LINE and NOT the fly. It is then the fly line that transfers momentum/energy to the fly.

That is the reason that the fly rod and line you choose depends on the fly you chose.

A certain amount of Kinetic Energy and Momentum is required to cast a heavy fly a set distance. KE = 0.5MVV. Momentum P = MV. With a low mass fly line fly line, you cannot generate the KE or P needed. Note that both mass and velocity are components of energy and momentum. So you need both mass and velocity for both KE and P.

So now we understand that a certain amount of fly line mass traveling at a certain velocity is required to cast a fly and that the MASS and the aerodynamic DRAG of the fly will determine how much fly line mass multiplied by fly line velocity is required.

Not only that, but to CONTROL the cast, the fly line acceleration to the required velocity must be smoothy applied over a rod stroke that is long enough to achieve the required velocity.

The heavier the fly and more air resistant the fly, with the more fly line mass or higher fly line velocity you need to created the required energy for the cast.

It becomes obvious then that if you use a light fly line, which requires a very high fly line velocity to cast the heavy fly, you will need a very LOOOONNNNNGGGG rod stroke. Basically, you could not cast the fly since it was impossible for you to have a long enough rod stroke to achieve the line velocity needed with your set up.

 

[knotjoe]

Also, is it best just to skip the Pike flies if all you have is a 5wt or is there a trick that you can use to help make it work?

Thanks!

IIRC from your other posts, you have two lines, one of which is a type III sinker. If you were trying this with the floating line, trying to push the Sex Dungeon with the sinking line might work a bit better. These lines are a bit different on the cast, I've found they can do slightly more than the floating lines with streamers like the one you mention.

It's still a 5 wt so don't expect much against such a big streamer, but it's something you might try just to see if there is a difference. Sometimes sinking lines can be surprisingly fast and bullish in the air even with oversized offerings. Although I seldom use them, they hold their own better in high winds as well.

Kelly Galloup actually uses heavy sinking lines for some of these flies (Zoo Cougar, too) and likes the downward pull component for the action imparted on retrieves. Might be an effective workaround on a 5 wt if you haven't tried yet.

This response assumes you were failing with the floating line and Sex Dungeon. If it fails with the type III, it ain't likely to work very well with anything on the 5wt.

 

[Ard]

Trick = Don't plan on stripping all the way back to the rod tip. Once you can see the fly at perhaps 30 feet determine if there is a fish following. If not then use the water to help load the rod and make a singlle back cast and shoot the line & fly as far back out as you can in a different angle from the previous cast.

I have fished for Pike and many other species with a 7'9" Orvis Far & Fine many times before I began buying rods in abundance.

 

[dcfoster]

IIRC from your other posts, you have two lines, one of which is a type III sinker. If you were trying this with the floating line, trying to push the Sex Dungeon with the sinking line might work a bit better. These lines are a bit different on the cast, I've found they can do slightly more than the floating lines with streamers like the one you mention.



It's still a 5 wt so don't expect much against such a big streamer, but it's something you might try just to see if there is a difference. Sometimes sinking lines can be surprisingly fast and bullish in the air even with oversized offerings. Although I seldom use them, they hold their own better in high winds as well.



Kelly Galloup actually uses heavy sinking lines for some of these flies (Zoo Cougar, too) and likes the downward pull component for the action imparted on retrieves. Might be an effective workaround on a 5 wt if you haven't tried yet.



This response assumes you were failing with the floating line and Sex Dungeon. If it fails with the type III, it ain't likely to work very well with anything on the 5wt.

Thanks for the tip... I’ll throw on the other spool and see what happens.


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[knotjoe]

I’ll throw on the other spool and see what happens.

Ahhh, good…you still have options in the bag to explore.

Here’s something I forgot to mention regarding larger streamers with deer hair heads on lighter flytackle (or any weight flytackle for that matter). They’re kinda like casting a sock, but a wet sock often flies better than a dry sock. Could be less aerodynamic drag, maybe the water weight in the hair helps with momentum, but whatever it is (probably both) they tend to behave better at the ends of the casting movements.

Nothing harder to cast than a Scotchguarded deer hair popper, they are simply too waterproof and dry. I always liked the wax treatment as it slicked them a bit and allowed some water to penetrate and facilitate natural turnover via fly momentum.

You have a big pike streamer, it's not supposed to be waterproof dry anyway, so pin it to an underwater stick and let it soak while getting familiar with the Type III and smaller flies. When the Dungeon’s deer hair head absorbs some water and becomes a wet sock, tie her on and give her a ride.

You’ll be more toward the Clouser/beadhead end of the flycasting physics continuum regarding who’s really pulling and pushing who around up there, but it might get it out there decently well and be fun to cast. Never tried a Belgian cast with a sinker, but you might read and watch some videos for that one. Pull long line as Ard recommends and see if you can do a reasonable oval move to get it going. Good links in the sticky posts here on Belgian technique, lots of good discussion and observation on nuance.

Warmwater fly is kinda sleazy this way, we’re always trying to make things work in ways it really isn’t supposed to. A pleasant indulgence nonetheless

 

[Hirdy]

As the others have noted, you needed more mass in the fly line than you were using, either by initiating the cast with more line outside the tip, or by starting with a heavier outfit. More mass in the line gives you more oomph to move the fly, a bit like a large trailer needs a large truck to control it. You may be able to pull that trailer with a light car, but controlling it will not be pretty when you turn a corner.

In your situation and if I had one with me, I would have put a much heavier line on the reel (say an 8) and used spey casting techniques to move the line. A skagit head on a running line would work.

A heavier outfit would be my number one choice though.

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[fr8dog]

Try patterns that are more streamlined in shape. Longer and thin looking like minnows. Something that pushes lots of water is also pushing a lot of air. Keep them light and add a bit of extra flash to make them appear larger in the water. High contrast colors will also help.

Look at salty flies and adapt them to your area. I have 'Essential Saltwater Flies'. Most of them work well around here, just tied on freshwater hooks. Anchovy, surf candy, etc.

Something to consider.