Casting critique request

[Matt4.0]

So in addition to singing up for a lesson series, I picked up a copy of Jason Borger’s Single Handed Fly Casting. (Side note- there was a mishap with shipping, and I won’t go into detail but Jason did MUCH more than I would have requested to make it right)

After the recent lesson I took I learned I had a lot more wrist action than I thought. Kind of frustrating as I have become fairly accurate at 40’ and in, but given my struggles in accuracy from 40-60’ in a couple small competitions I know I have work to do.

I was attempting the “foundation cast” as detailed in Jason’s book. The videos below (one slow motion, one regular speed) are my attempt from today. Here are my thoughts, I’d love any critiques or suggestions from the experts here:
- I think my biggest fault is on the forward cast; comparing it the video of Borger availability online, my stop is too late and not abrupt enough? My wrist also bends/opens too much at the bottom I believe. If so, I’m a little lost here as when I tried to keep that angle on my forward cast I had trouble getting the line to extend towards the hoop I was targeting. (Seemed to get some “recoil” as best I can explain it)

- I’m also wondering about how far back the back cast should go for a given distance. In the video of Borger (linked below as well for easy reference) his hand is even with his temple. The instructions in the book mention this position as well, but no reference as to approximate distance for this position. (He does mention extending and shortening for different casts so perhaps I just haven’t gotten that far yet).

In my video, I’m casting somewhere around 35’-40’.

Thanks in advance.

Slow motion:
Untitled on Vimeo

Regular speed:
Untitled on Vimeo

Borger:
Jason Borger's Foundation Casting Stroke on Vimeo

 

[boisker]

The main difference (I think) is you are delivering most of the rod movement by rotating the arm from the elbow, if you watch Jason’s video the angle between the upper and lower arm stays the same for most of the stroke.... the elbow lifts up and then only towards the end of the stroke does the forearm move as well, on the forward element the elbow then pushes down and again towards the end of the cast the forearm moves
Sry that isn’t very well explained, but tis late in the U.K.! But hopefully it makes sense when you compare Jason’s and your vids

 

[Matt4.0]

The main difference (I think) is you are delivering most of the rod movement by rotating the arm from the elbow, if you watch Jason’s video the angle between the upper and lower arm stays the same for most of the stroke.... the elbow lifts up and then only towards the end of the stroke does the forearm move as well, on the forward element the elbow then pushes down and again towards the end of the cast the forearm moves
Sry that isn’t very well explained, but tis late in the U.K.! But hopefully it makes sense when you compare Jason’s and your vids

It does make sense, and after watching these a little more it’s something I picked up on a bit but couldn’t quite interpret. Thank you!

Thinking about it more now, also helps me understand why I felt like my hand muscles felt worked way more than they should; perhaps trying to keep my wrist out of it, but still erroneously using mostly forearm put too much stress/effort in my hand?

 

[silver creek]

So in addition to singing up for a lesson series, I picked up a copy of Jason Borger’s Single Handed Fly Casting. (Side note- there was a mishap with shipping, and I won’t go into detail but Jason did MUCH more than I would have requested to make it right)

After the recent lesson I took I learned I had a lot more wrist action than I thought. Kind of frustrating as I have become fairly accurate at 40’ and in, but given my struggles in accuracy from 40-60’ in a couple small competitions I know I have work to do.

I was attempting the “foundation cast” as detailed in Jason’s book. The videos below (one slow motion, one regular speed) are my attempt from today. Here are my thoughts, I’d love any critiques or suggestions from the experts here:
- I think my biggest fault is on the forward cast; comparing it the video of Borger availability online, my stop is too late and not abrupt enough? My wrist also bends/opens too much at the bottom I believe. If so, I’m a little lost here as when I tried to keep that angle on my forward cast I had trouble getting the line to extend towards the hoop I was targeting. (Seemed to get some “recoil” as best I can explain it)

- I’m also wondering about how far back the back cast should go for a given distance. In the video of Borger (linked below as well for easy reference) his hand is even with his temple. The instructions in the book mention this position as well, but no reference as to approximate distance for this position. (He does mention extending and shortening for different casts so perhaps I just haven’t gotten that far yet).

In my video, I’m casting somewhere around 35’-40’.

Thanks in advance.

Slow motion:
Untitled on Vimeo

Regular speed:
Untitled on Vimeo

Borger:
Jason Borger's Foundation Casting Stroke on Vimeo

Jason is demonstrating the casting stroke but you must not forget the other fundamentals of fly casting.

The first rule of fly casting is that the cast cannot start until the end of the leader/line (in other words, the fly starts moving). In your video, you mimic the stroke BUT you need to start the cast with the end of the rod tip on the ground (eg, pointed DOWN at what would be the water) and the line tight to the end of the leader. This is the rod and line position you would start the cast in when you are fishing after you stripped the line tight ot the lfy adn were ready for the next cast.

When you start the cast with the rod ELEVATED at 2:30 as you do, you have WASTED potential casting stroke length. So start with the rod tip down and just that change will make a huge difference in loading the rod for the back cast.

You also are giving up some stroke length AND some power by not raising the casting hand further up so that it is opposite your right ear as Jason has. You elbo should go up and down like a pump handle and when you do that you bring the strong shoulder muscles into the cast. At the stop, you lower the rod to 3 O'clock but you SHOULD follow the line down with the rod tip all the way down to the ground.

Then you can then make the next pickup and laydown cast from this rod tip down position.

Eventually, you will not need to do single pickup and laydown casts. You will link the forward and back casts to lengthen the line and even shoot line.

Note that this basic cast does limit the stroke length. For long casts, you will need to unblock the shoulder so you can extend and drift the rod further back. This will allow you a longer rod stroke for longer casts.

My friend, Nelson Ishiyama edited Mel Krieger's fly casting book, The Essence of Fly Casting. Mel Krieger along with Gary Borger (Jason's father) were instructors in the Fenwick Fly Fishing classes which were headed by Casting Champion Jim Green. This foundation cast was developed at Golden Gate Casting Club.

Nelson owns the Henry's Fork Lodge and has a stop motion image of himself performing the cast on his web site. Notice how Nelson pulls the elbow DOWN for the forward cast:

Here's Nelson's explanation of the foundation "perfect" cast.

Blog - Henrys Fork Lodge

Slow motion basic foundation cast by Chris Korich. Chris Korich is renowned as a National & World Casting Champion, the 2010 Orvis National Casting Champion (Men's Tournament Division), a runner-up in "Fly Fishing Masters" team competition, and the only man to beat Steve Rajeff for the ACA National Grand All Around Champion crown in 40 years. He is also considered by many to be one of the best casting analysts, coaches and instructors in North America.

Notice that Chris does not bring his elbow and hand as high as Jason suggests. In cast his stroke is shorter like yours. The difference is that Chris is a casting champion, has a strong casting arm and impeccable timing. So he can cast further with a shorter stroke than you can. So you need to practice with the longer beginner's stroke.

YouTube

 

[bazzer69]

Were are you? I’m a FFI casting instructor and I live in Redding Northern California, if you are nearby I can give you a ( free ) casting lesson. That’s good for anyone else as well. Just PM me with your email address
Thanks
Bazza


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Matt4.0]

Jason is demonstrating the casting stroke but you must not forget the other fundamentals of fly casting.

The first rule of fly casting is that the cast cannot start until the end of the leader/line (in other words, the fly starts moving). In your video, you mimic the stroke BUT you need to start the cast with the end of the rod tip on the ground (eg, pointed DOWN at what would be the water) and the line tight to the end of the leader. This is the rod and line position you would start the cast in when you are fishing after you stripped the line tight ot the lfy adn were ready for the next cast.

When you start the cast with the rod ELEVATED at 2:30 as you do, you have WASTED potential casting stroke length. So start with the rod tip down and just that change will make a huge difference in loading the rod for the back cast.

You also are giving up some stroke length AND some power by not raising the casting hand further up so that it is opposite your right ear as Jason has. You elbo should go up and down like a pump handle and when you do that you bring the strong shoulder muscles into the cast. At the stop, you lower the rod to 3 O'clock but you SHOULD follow the line down with the rod tip all the way down to the ground.

Then you can then make the next pickup and laydown cast from this rod tip down position.

Eventually, you will not need to do single pickup and laydown casts. You will link the forward and back casts to lengthen the line and even shoot line.

Note that this basic cast does limit the stroke length. For long casts, you will need to unblock the shoulder so you can extend and drift the rod further back. This will allow you a longer rod stroke for longer casts.

My friend, Nelson Ishiyama edited Mel Krieger's fly casting book, The Essence of Fly Casting. Mel Krieger along with Gary Borger (Jason's father) were instructors in the Fenwick Fly Fishing classes which were headed by Casting Champion Jim Green. This foundation cast was developed at Golden Gate Casting Club.

Nelson owns the Henry's Fork Lodge and has a stop motion image of himself performing the cast on his web site. Notice how Nelson pulls the elbow DOWN for the forward cast:

Here's Nelson's explanation of the foundation "perfect" cast.

Blog - Henrys Fork Lodge

Slow motion basic foundation cast by Chris Korich. Chris Korich is renowned as a National & World Casting Champion, the 2010 Orvis National Casting Champion (Men's Tournament Division), a runner-up in "Fly Fishing Masters" team competition, and the only man to beat Steve Rajeff for the ACA National Grand All Around Champion crown in 40 years. He is also considered by many to be one of the best casting analysts, coaches and instructors in North America.

Notice that Chris does not bring his elbow and hand as high as Jason suggests. In cast his stroke is shorter like yours. The difference is that Chris is a casting champion, has a strong casting arm and impeccable timing. So he can cast further with a shorter stroke than you can. So you need to practice with the longer beginner's stroke.

YouTube

Thanks Silver. I’ve watched that video of Chris before and the context you give it makes sense.

One thing I also notice now is my elbow stays pretty static on the downstroke, whereas both Jason and Chris bring it back in towards the torso (Jason more so than Chris but as you mentioned his is a longer stroke overall).

As aluded to in the link you posted to Nelson’s cast description, i suspect this results in a “pushing” motion and resultant tailing loops I’ve always fought.

 

[Matt4.0]

Jason is demonstrating the casting stroke but you must not forget the other fundamentals of fly casting.

When you start the cast with the rod ELEVATED at 2:30 as you do, you have WASTED potential casting stroke length. So start with the rod tip down and just that change will make a huge difference in loading the rod for the back cast.

I think this is actually misrepresented due to my videographer and amateur editing. Both of the videos start after a false cast. Perhaps I should change that next session.

 

[boisker]

Jason’s book is fantastic, I bought a copy last year.... did you spend much time pantomiming the foundation cast?
It does feel a bit strange practicing without a rod, but it really does help- it removes all thoughts and concern about the line. I had a chopstick lying around on a table for when I was watching tv and spent ages in the dark winter months doing it.... much to my wife’s at first amusement then some weeks later slight irritation

 

[kevind62]

In a nutshell? You suck!! KIDDING!!! Wish I could help but I'm still trying to figure out how to keep the water from getting in to my waders when I fall in. Anyone have any videos for this???

Seriously though, I'm no expert by any stretch of the imagination. Started many years ago as a kid in ponds and creeks for panfish. No sort of training, just bought the equipment I could afford at the local Ace Hardware and away we went. Later in life when I got serious about "real" fly fishing I did more research knowing there was a lot I was missing. First and foremost common thing I found with a lot of the "old timer" instructors online was the teaching of not doing the "windshield wiper" swing. Thus creating large loops and piled line at the end of the cast. Teaching to imagine drawing a straight line with your rod tip for tighter loops. But at the same time teaching to reduce the wrist action to open up those loops a bit when necessary on certain casting techniques. Without any wrist motion the "straight line" is virtually impossible to achieve. Looking closely at the third video you can see the slight wrist action in his motion. It's not linear. Some at the start and some at the end of the back cast and again slightly on the finish. Thinking from a practical standpoint, if you hold your wrist stiff your rod tip will mimic your arm motion completely, which in effect creates the "windshield wiper" motion. If you follow the rod tip in the B&W photo you can see this "straight line" clearly. Unfortunately it's not s video so you can't see how he's getting this.

As once said by a wise man, "there's more than one way to skin a cat". There are more than one way to achieve the long speed stroke with body mechanics. If you're not achieving your goal in your cast you're doing the right thing in asking the question. Just don't get caught up in a cookie cutter fix. One size doesn't fit all. Try several different techniques and/or mix and match to come up with your own. When I was a kid I had two friends who played baseball. Though I never really cared to play the sport on a competitive level (stuck to other fast moving and more aggressive contact sports) I still went to the games to support our team. Both were pitchers. Both through the meanest curveball on the planet for a 17 year old. Both pitches looked exactly the same in flight. Only one difference. One kid through it overhand and the other threw it sidearm. Both achieved the same result.

 

[silver creek]

This stop motion by Aitor Coteron on his blog, One More Cast, may help you. He is commenting on the "stoke angle" from Jason's book.

Note that by the 4th rod position on the forward stroke, the rod has started to COUNTERflex. This means that the rod stop has occurred just before that position.

Now look at rod position 3 and compare to rod position 4. Also follow the rod position 3 vs position 4 down to their hand positions and you will see that you CANNOT get the rod angle and lower rod tip in position 4 from position 3 WITHOUT a forward wrist flick/snap called "active tilt (pg 29 in Jason's book). This wrist flick/active tilt accelerates the rod, and moves the rod tip OUT OF THE WAY so the loop can form. It is illustrated in Jason's earlier casting book, "Nature of Fly Casting."

The "A,L & E" are the three parts/phases of the cast = Acceleration, Loop formation, and Energy transfer. Note that the degree of wrist flick/active tilt helps control the loop size.

 

[mcnerney]

Were are you? I’m a FFI casting instructor and I live in Redding Northern California, if you are nearby I can give you a ( free ) casting lesson. That’s good for anyone else as well. Just PM me with your email address
Thanks
Bazza


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Bazza: That is a very generous offer, if I was closer I'd take you up on it. I don't want to sidetrack this thread, but when you said you live in Redding, CA I just have to ask how did you fare in that huge wildfire?

 

[silver creek]

Were are you? I’m a FFI casting instructor and I live in Redding Northern California, if you are nearby I can give you a ( free ) casting lesson. That’s good for anyone else as well. Just PM me with your email address
Thanks
Bazza

I don't know if the location of the poster shows up in your browser page, but I can see that the OP's location is Golden, Co. I see location at the upper right of the post header with the join date and # of posts.

I notice that your location does not show. Did you fill your location in your personal page?

 

[bazzer69]

I don't know if the location of the poster shows up in your browser page, but I can see that the OP's location is Golden, Co. I see location at the upper right of the post header with the join date and # of posts.

I notice that your location does not show. Did you fill your location in your personal page?

Er, I thought my post says exactly where I am! But I’ll update my profile when possible.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Matt4.0]

Were are you? I’m a FFI casting instructor and I live in Redding Northern California, if you are nearby I can give you a ( free ) casting lesson. That’s good for anyone else as well. Just PM me with your email address
Thanks
Bazza


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks for the offer, but I’m in Colorado
I did find a local FFI instructor though.

 

[Matt4.0]

As once said by a wise man, "there's more than one way to skin a cat". There are more than one way to achieve the long speed stroke with body mechanics. If you're not achieving your goal in your cast you're doing the right thing in asking the question. Just don't get caught up in a cookie cutter fix. One size doesn't fit all. Try several different techniques and/or mix and match to come up with your own. When I was a kid I had two friends who played baseball. Though I never really cared to play the sport on a competitive level (stuck to other fast moving and more aggressive contact sports) I still went to the games to support our team. Both were pitchers. Both through the meanest curveball on the planet for a 17 year old. Both pitches looked exactly the same in flight. Only one difference. One kid through it overhand and the other threw it sidearm. Both achieved the same result.

I get and agree with your point. I grew up playing baseball and taught golf for a few years (quite a while ago). The parallels in learning the golf swing and the fly cast are many but that’s a different thread.

With that said I wouldn’t call myself a beginner caster, but maybe I’m trying to take myself back to that point. I did well in the amateur division in the local Golden Games fly fishing competition (a very small local deal) this year, but will be obliged to compete in the “pro” division next year (mostly local guides)

I’d consider myself competent for the casting required to fish my beloved Colorado streams and Stillwater’s, but improving won’t hurt. With that said, after after watching some of the experts cast in competitions, I know I have work to do as I plan on competing in the Vail mountain games next year. So my real motivation at this point is to get to a level where I can “make the bridge” for anyone who’s familiar.

 

[ibookje]

This is what I see:
1) your movement is very compact. A bit too compact as your elbow movement is very restricted. The final result is that you are making the ‘windshield’ movement.

2) your wrist is too firm. To make the final acceleration and to form a good (tight loop is not the holy grail here) loop.

My advise is:
3) use a bit more shoulder rotation to support (as in loosen up) your elbow. Let your elbow go down to to your body.

4) let your wrist support the acceleration by opening up a bit more. Don’t over do it. Hold the wrist after the opening and follow through with your elbow.

 

[Matt4.0]

Update: been making a few adjustments. Forward cast loop is still not quite as tight as I’d like but I think the primary causes are (in these slomo videos at least)
1) started the forward cast a bit soon
2) activated the “active tilt” aka wrist flick on the forward cast a hair too late, and/or still have too much horizontal movement in the elbow/forearm on the forward cast. Brief experimenting after these videos (i.e. after the wife got bored) were taken seems to confirm my theory.

With that said, my accuracy in the 40-60’ range along with my overall distance has improved dramatically since the last local competition I usually do in May.

Also, today was the first test run with a new SA MED line and wow, what a difference! The Sage One Elite 5wt I’m using loved that line much more than the Rio Gold I was using before. Close in was about the same but anything over 30’ was much improved with this line.

Untitled on Vimeo

Untitled on Vimeo

 

[Ard]

I'm pretty sure you know that I don't wade into these casting discussions often, there's just to many others who are way better than I am but...………….

I looked at the second video on the video website where I could get a full screen picture and I have a good monitor. What I see? You need a more crisp sweep into the back cast and a higher stop on the forward.

You are stopping at what I would call the 11 or 1 O' clock point on your back cast but allowing the rod to drift to horizontal on the forward cast.

For a tighter loop without using the free hand for line haul / speed, you need crisp strokes and stops because it is only the one arm and rod that are responsible for generating all the energy and line speed.

If you are going to allow either the fore or back cast to have rod drift you are better off on the back cast. You can get away with more on the back than on the forward cast. That forward cast needs a high abrupt stop to create the tight loop. Once the loop has formed and has unfurled toward the target you can allow some drift toward the horizontal if you wish to shoot additional line into the cast. That's another story though.

 

[wjc]

It is hard to tell anything from your video, but you are on the right track for taking one. Fly casting can be boiled down to acceleration, timing and casting arc. If you move your camera back, and take the film from the same perspective (from the side) as you have done, you will be able to see what the rod is doing.

Granted that the rod will do what the hand and arm are doing; however, it is total conjecture whether the hand and arm are doing what is necessary at the proper TIME without seeing at least a good portion of the rod bending and un-bending.

A good video does not have to be razor sharp - but does need to give an idea of rod bend. Here are a couple stills grabbed from a video to illustrate what I'm talking about. Though you can't see the line between hand and stripping guide, there would not be a bend in the rod to that degree if there were slack in the line.



In the one below, I have started the haul and the rod butt is roughly perpendicular to my body. It is actually acute to the angle of trajectory. The fastest portion of the haul is just ready to start. Draw a line in your mind along the faint fly line through the rod tip and into the cloud above the second coconut tree from the one on the right.



The pic below is just about at the peak velocity of the haul and you can clearly see that the line coming out the tip- compared to the previous picture - is very close to the same elevation as the prior picture as compared to the coconut tree in the background. In other words, the line is very taunt and on a trajectory very close to the previous picture. No hump or dip in the line.



What the three stills show is the following:

Pic#1) The timing of the start of the backcast started pulling the line in the direction of the backcast very early in the casting stroke as evidenced by the rod bend compared to the angle of the rod butt.

Pic#2) The rod bend has increased dramatically from Pic #1, and the line elevation can be noted by it's relation to the coconut tree

Pic #3) The rod bend increased more from pic #2, yet the line remained very close to the same elevation as in pic #2. This means that the rod tip path was relatively straight relative to the ground (in the plane we can see) for the critical portion of the casting stroke. Therefore, it was most likely an efficient application of power applied at the right time to result in a decent cast.

From those three pics we can infer that the cast was an efficient one. And that was, indeed, the case. You'll either have to take my word on that or force me to find the actual video.

Keep at it, and go for some videos showing more of the rod.

 

[wjc]

Ok. I just watched the last two videos by right clicking and copying the vimeo website so I could see it full screen. I agree with Ard. You are not accelerating your backcast which is causing a very open loop back there.

That creates sag in the line at the start of your forward cast because you have to wait too long before starting it in order for the fly end of the line behind you to straighten (with a big sag in it). While it is true that casting for targets at short distances is easier with a wider loop which will slam the fly down quickly, that can be done more effectively starting from a sag free backcast.

Regardless of the eventual presentation, when single hand casting, it is nearly always far better to start it off with a backcast that is as straight as possible at the start of the forward cast. The longer it takes the fly to get back there, the longer gravity has to drop all the line between the rod and the fly - regardless of the trajectory of the backcast. Once the line is straight behind you at the start of the forward cast, you can start fresh with whatever loop size or shape or hook you want with the forward cast.

In other words, you have eliminated half of the variables you have to deal with (ie the estimated amount of sag/slack behind you, and the additional length of time for wind to act upon it).