Really basic question about casting ark

[clayed21085]

So this is a very basic question. The casting ark (angle change of rod during cast) generally is said to naturally lengthen during the casting stroke ( distance hand travels to point A to point B during cast) does the angle need to increase as the cast lengthens by opening the wrist more?
So when casting for distance are we almost pointing the rod almost horizontally and coming forward like a javelolin? Or at least stopping at 45 degrees but opening the wrist more after the stop ( rotary drift)?

 

[silver creek]

YouTube

YouTube

YouTube

Sexyloops Fly Casting Masterclass 37 - Competition Distance Cast on Vimeo

 

[clayed21085]

Sorry for the late reply back, thx for all the videos the Steve rajeff one being the most helpful as he states opening up the ark by relaxing the wrist more ( through drift). I always extended my stroke but continued to have issues with tailing loops, now I've been relaxing my wrist and dropping the tip of my rod down after the stop with good results. I guess a better way if asking this question is if you were not to drift at all would you still need to open your wrist more than 45 on the forward and back stop or would lenghining your overall stroke be adequate as your cast was extended.

 

[silver creek]

Sorry for the late reply back, thx for all the videos the Steve rajeff one being the most helpful as he states opening up the ark by relaxing the wrist more ( through drift). I always extended my stroke but continued to have issues with tailing loops, now I've been relaxing my wrist and dropping the tip of my rod down after the stop with good results. I guess a better way if asking this question is if you were not to drift at all would you still need to open your wrist more than 45 on the forward and back stop or would lenghining your overall stroke be adequate as your cast was extended.

Opening the wrist IS rotational drift of the rod.

Drift is composed of two possible motions - Translation and Rotation. We can move (translate) the rod to reposition the rod tip or we can rotate the rod to reposition the rod tip or we can do both.

https://flyfishersinternational.org/Portals/0/Documents/Casting/MCI/Castch My Drift.Al Kyte.pdf

Read my posts from this recent thread:

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/the-fly-cast/630936-question-drift.html#post1203786

 

[clayed21085]

Say you're false casting 30' feet of line without any drift at all you're only opening your wrist at 45 degrees at the stop allowing the loop to unroll then casting forward, you shoot to 50' and extend your stroke to accommodate the additional bend in the rod but you do not drift just open the wrist and stop, but does the wrist stop at 45 degrees or wider? does widening the overall stroke also widen the angle/ark ? Does the wrist always stop at 45

 

[silver creek]

I don't think it is possible to answer your question. Not everyone uses the same stroke for the same length of cast. For example, Steve Rajeff could much longer than I can cast using a shorter stroke because he is so much stronger with better timing and a better double haul. And that does not enen get into the difference in our forearm and arm lengths. He is both taller and stronger.

You are obsessing over the angles and forgetting that at the end of the rod is an INDIVIDUAL person casting the rod; and the length of the person's forearm, the length of the person's arm, and hand is ATTACHED to the rod and helps create the length of the stroke path the rod tip makes. What I am saying is that the person with a 6 inch longer arm is casting with an effectively longer "rod" and he/she is casting further up from the ground because he body is longer/taller as well.

What you are doing is equating a stroke angle and the length of the casting stroke with a certain distance when the stroke angle and path is only part of what goes into a cast. Let's take an example from baseball. Do you think if you used the exact same arm path shape as Nolan Ryan, you could pitch a fastball like he did? Of course not. You don't have Nolan Ryan's arm.

Take a look at the Korich video with the compact short rod stroke. This is a 50 foot cast. Notice that the rod bends down to the butt! Do you think you could cast 50 feet with the same compact rod stroke?

YouTube

 

[clayed21085]

I believe I understand fully what you're saying here, but first I think we can both agree on that the same rod/line combination needs to travel the same distance in order to achieve the results we're looking for. In other words if we were to compare two casters casting side by side with the same length of line and achieving good loops, if we were to measure the actual distance the tip moved on both their rods it would be identical or very close the only difference might be their actual stroke length, as caster A is considerably stronger, taller, or longer arms than say caster B his stroke would/could be much more compact as his physical makeup allows him to achieve same distance the tip moves by moving his arm/hand less. Am I missing anything?

 

[silver creek]

I believe I understand fully what you're saying here, but first I think we can both agree on that the same rod/line combination needs to travel the same distance in order to achieve the results we're looking for. In other words if we were to compare two casters casting side by side with the same length of line and achieving good loops, if we were to measure the actual distance the tip moved on both their rods it would be identical or very close the only difference might be their actual stroke length, as caster A is considerably stronger, taller, or longer arms than say caster B his stroke would/could be much more compact as his physical makeup allows him to achieve same distance the tip moves by moving his arm/hand less. Am I missing anything?

Yes you are missing something. I do not agree that the same rod/line combination needs to travel the same distance to achieve the results (the same results) we are looking for.

The reason I gave you the video of Chris Korich is that even if someone had the identical stroke path of the ROD tip as Chris, they could not cast as far. Similarly, even if a baseball pitcher had the same body and arm profile as Nolan Ryan, they could not throw the ball as fast. It is NOT only about the stroke path or even about the rod tip path. Even the rod stop comes into the equation. A more efficient rod stop will transfer the rod load to the fly line better.

A tournament caster accelerates the rod FASTER and more smoothly than a recreational caster so they can cast farther with a shorter stroke length and rod tip path. Let use assume that fly line loop shapes are identical for two casts. The cast that will go the farther is the one with the higher fly line velocity. An elite tournament caster can achieve that higher velocity with a shorter rod stroke. But even that does not consider all the variables.

Since the rod tip path is shorter, and the rate of acceleration of the rod is faster; the fly rod bends more deeply (note that in the video of Chris Korich the rod butt is bending), and this brings the rod tip closer the the caster's hand.

That means that although the rod tip itself travels in a straight line, the stroke path of the caster hand must COMPENSATE for the rod tip shortening and the caster must change the rod stroke to account for the degree of acceleration.

The image below shows how the rod actually shortens during different casting lengths. The distance between the rod tip and the casters hand is the chord = the line connecting two points on an arc or circle. Although the rod shortening is demonstrated for different casting lengths, the differences in rod shortening would occur with differing rates of acceleration for the same casing lengths. The shorter stroke having the faster acceleration and greater rod shortening.

I suggest you buy Jason Borger's new book on fly casting. Then work on the casting modules to improve your cast.

Sexyloops - Jason Borger's Single-Handed Fly Casting

Single Handed Fly Casting (book review) << One More Last Cast

https://flyfishersinternational.org/Portals/0/Documents/Casting/The Loop/2017.APR-JUL.LOOP.pdf

 

[clayed21085]

I think the problem I have with the whole baseball pitcher thing is their isn't a rod that bending, one pitcher could throw a baseball more efficiently than the other with the same stroke length by maybe utilizing certain hand/arm movements during that stroke or doing so at a more faster pace than the other guy, therefore the ball goes, further/faster. When a flycaster tries to put more umph into a given stroke the rod shortens/loads more and the stroke lengthens to compensate, so for one person to be able to move a rod/rod tip less and another for the same amount of line ( both casters are casting identical set-ups) means they're timing might be better, their stop might be better, but loading a rod more into a compact stroke is going to cause a dip and there must be some other way they're compensating without lenghining the stroke. Other than that I understand most other concepts.

 

[dillon]

Let's not confuse arc's with ark's... Just sayin'

 

[Hirdy]

Clay,

The reason we need to open the casting arc is due to geometry. When the rods bends, it shortens the distance between the tip and your hand (known as the cord length). The more it bends, the shorter the cord. The only way to accommodate that bend and still have a straight line tip path is to use a wider arc. Lengthening the stroke with translation will not have the same effect.

I made a video explaining it (see below), but here is a picture that summarises that video. The white string is the tip path while the yellow string is the minimum cord length (which remains constant).

• A casting arc that's too narrow for a given rod bend (cord length) produces a bowl shaped tip path and a tailing loop.
• An appropriate casting arc makes a straight line tip path and desirable loops.
• A casting arc that's too wide makes a dome shaped tip path and wide loops or "non-loops".

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[silver creek]

I think the problem I have with the whole baseball pitcher thing is their isn't a rod that bending, one pitcher could throw a baseball more efficiently than the other with the same stroke length by maybe utilizing certain hand/arm movements during that stroke or doing so at a more faster pace than the other guy, therefore the ball goes, further/faster. When a flycaster tries to put more umph into a given stroke the rod shortens/loads more and the stroke lengthens to compensate, so for one person to be able to move a rod/rod tip less and another for the same amount of line ( both casters are casting identical set-ups) means they're timing might be better, their stop might be better, but loading a rod more into a compact stroke is going to cause a dip and there must be some other way they're compensating without lenghining the stroke. Other than that I understand most other concepts.

This is where you are wrong-- "but loading a rod more into a compact stroke is going to cause a dip"

NO, NO, NO! A faster rate of acceleration does not have to be an inconsistent rate of acceleration. What matters is that the caster has enough CONTROL of his rod stroke to accomplish this.

What matters is a smooth (constant) acceleration. A caster who an accelerate the rod faster (the rate of acceleration is faster) than another caster with cast the line farther with the same stoke length.

And they will also be able to cast farther with longer stroke lengths as well.

Of course there is a limit to how far the compact basic foundation cast will go; but that does not negate the fact even with identical stroke lengths, that casters who can accelerate faster and smoother and stop harder will cast further than another caster who cannot.

If loading (accelerating) the rod more on a compact stroke will cause a dip, then loading (accelerating) the rod more on a longer rod stroke will cause as dip. What causes the dip is NOT loading (accelerating) the rod per se, but a sudden increase in the rate of acceleration (load). So better casters are better at SMMOOOTHHLY accelerating the rod at higher rates for identical stroke lengths.

This is my last reply.

 

[Hirdy]

I guess a better way if asking this question is if you were not to drift at all would you still need to open your wrist more than 45 on the forward and back stop or would lenghining your overall stroke be adequate as your cast was extended.

Hi Clay,

We need to be a little careful using the word "drift". It has a particular definition among casting instructors* which I believe is different to your intention here. If by "drift" you mean "sliding the the whole forward forward and back during the stroke", distinct from rotating the rod through the arc, then no, that's not going to work out. (Casting instructors know that as "translation".)

Keeping a constant casting arc but lengthening the total stroke by translating that arc will still produce a bowl-shaped tip path. It'll just be a longer, flatter bowl that will still produce a tailing loop.

You will need to open that casting arc as you bend the rod more. Whether you do that by using the wrist, the elbow, the shoulder or the torso is up to you, but the arc must increase or achieving a straight line tip path will not be possible.

Cheers,
Graeme

* Drift is defined as opening the casting angle after the stop has been made and while the loop progresses away from the caster. It's a way of increasing the casting arc. (It's also the antidote to "creep", which is normally a flaw in the casting stroke.) I'm doing a very subtle amount of drift in these casts. You'll see the rod "lays down" just after the loop forms:

YouTube

 

[clayed21085]

I'm quite aware what drift is but thank you anyway for defining it, I create my best loops by "translating" after the stop and tilting my wrist back more ( rotational drift) so for me at the moment it's an combination of two styles of drift, as my cast lengthens and after the "stop" I move my hand back more and tilt my wrist back more effectively widening the angle/ark this has ultimately eliminated my tailing loop problem as long as I have an appropriately smooth haul distance for the line carry, simply translating the rod/ lenghining the stroke wasn't enough I had to learn to "break" my wrist a little more as the cast lengthens through rotational drift, this seemed to be the big breakthrough for me... and I want to apologize to silver, as it has been frustrating for a new caster to perform the mechanics but even more so to understand them. But I appreciate the patience shown here over the last couple of days.

 

[denver1911]

This is where you are wrong-- "but loading a rod more into a compact stroke is going to cause a dip"

NO, NO, NO! A faster rate of acceleration does not have to be an inconsistent rate of acceleration. What matters is that the caster has enough CONTROL of his rod stroke to accomplish this.

What matters is a smooth (constant) acceleration. A caster who an accelerate the rod faster (the rate of acceleration is faster) than another caster with cast the line farther with the same stoke length.

And they will also be able to cast farther with longer stroke lengths as well.

Of course there is a limit to how far the compact basic foundation cast will go; but that does not negate the fact even with identical stroke lengths, that casters who can accelerate faster and smoother and stop harder will cast further than another caster who cannot.

If loading (accelerating) the rod more on a compact stroke will cause a dip, then loading (accelerating) the rod more on a longer rod stroke will cause as dip. What causes the dip is NOT loading (accelerating) the rod per se, but a sudden increase in the rate of acceleration (load). So better casters are better at SMMOOOTHHLY accelerating the rod at higher rates for identical stroke lengths.

This is my last reply.

Really great thread. I only have one thing I can add: the “rate of acceleration” is called “jerk.” Same thing some of us mumble about those casters that do it well when we are struggling.

I plan to put some of this information I can take away from this thread to use. My next trip is to New Orleans the last week of October. Plenty of time to hone up before I go.

 

[clayed21085]

So basically if I learned anything from this discussion is stroke lengh can be extremely personable. Varying from personal strength, timing, ability to smoothly apply power, and strong stops,ect. But certain things are grounded as law in that expansion of the casting ark is necessary as stroke/line lengths extend. More experienced casters can accomplish this in shorter strokes because they're timing and power application is much better.

 

[silver creek]

I should have added that acceleration rate, for example 10 ft/sec/sec (an object is accelerating its velocity by 10 feet every second) can also accelerate. For example the rate of acceleration of the acceleration rate could be 1 foot every second so the first second the object is accelerating at 10 ft/sec/sec and then the next second it is 11 ft/sec/sec, then 12 ft/sec/sec. As long as the process is SMMOOOOTHH, there will be no "dip" of the rod tip.

In fact, at the beginning of a fly cast the rod tip velocity is 0 ft/sec and it is stationary. As the caster begins his cast he starts to move/accelerate the fly rod and the acceleration rate of the fly rod starts at zero and does increase. So all of us accelerate (increase) the rate of acceleration of the fly rod.

The "dip" of the fly rod tip that results in a tailing loop is a sudden jump in the rate of acceleration of the acceleration rate. So learning to accelerate the acceleration rate of the fly rod during the cast is one skill we must master.

Casting is a DYNAMIC process that depends on the caster'sa ability and the ability to smoothly accelerate the rod to a higher velocity in a shorter rod stroke results in a longer cast assuming that all other things such as the loop shape, etc are equal.

So yes, as we become better caster, we become better at managing the variables such as stroke length, rod stop, SLP of the rod tip, etc.

 

[denver1911]

I should have added that acceleration rate, for example 10 ft/sec/sec (an object is accelerating its velocity by 10 feet every second) can also accelerate. For example the rate of acceleration of the acceleration rate could be 1 foot every second so the first second the object is accelerating at 10 ft/sec/sec and then the next second it is 11 ft/sec/sec, then 12 ft/sec/sec. As long as the process is SMMOOOOTHH, there will be no "dip" of the rod tip.

In fact, at the beginning of a fly cast the rod tip velocity is 0 ft/sec and it is stationary. As the caster begins his cast he starts to move/accelerate the fly rod and the acceleration rate of the fly rod starts at zero and does increase. So all of us accelerate (increase) the rate of acceleration of the fly rod.

The "dip" of the fly rod tip that results in a tailing loop is a sudden jump in the rate of acceleration of the acceleration rate. So learning to accelerate the acceleration rate of the fly rod during the cast is one skill we must master.

Casting is a DYNAMIC process that depends on the caster'sa ability and the ability to smoothly accelerate the rod to a higher velocity in a shorter rod stroke results in a longer cast assuming that all other things such as the loop shape, etc are equal.

So yes, as we become better caster, we become better at managing the variables such as stroke length, rod stop, SLP of the rod tip, etc.

And let me clear my math up: the rate of change of acceleration is the “jerk.” Acceleration is given in units of distance divided by time squared (meters per second per second). Jerk is given in units of distance divided by time cubed (meters per second per second per second). Basically, velocity is how fast something is traveling. Acceleration is how fast is velocity changing. Jerk is how fast acceleration is changing. Now .. let me go practice casting

 

[silver creek]

And let me clear my math up: the rate of change of acceleration is the “jerk.” Acceleration is given in units of distance divided by time squared (meters per second per second). Jerk is given in units of distance divided by time cubed (meters per second per second per second). Basically, velocity is how fast something is traveling. Acceleration is how fast is velocity changing. Jerk is how fast acceleration is changing. Now .. let me go practice casting

Your math is correct but I consider a "jerk" to be a rapid change is acceleration that is TEMPORARY. It is a pulse in the acceleration rate = a rapid increase followed by a decrease.

It does not have to be so. In fact during casting the rate of acceleration can increase smoothly without a "jerk".

Perhaps Bruce Richards is able to explain it better than I. See his article, “More on Definitions… Casting Stroke” in the Spring 2016 Issue of The Loop.[/i]

https://flyfishersinternational.org/Portals/0/Documents/Casting/The Loop/2016.Spring.Loop.Update.pdf

”…..the casting stroke as the part of a fly cast that actually resulted in a loop being formed, more specifically, “rod motion sufficient to cause loop formation”.

So what does that really mean? It’s pretty simple, and specific. The rod motion that propels the line to casting speed is rod acceleration. When rod acceleration reaches a certain rate and is maintained long enough, it is “sufficient” to accelerate the line to the speed necessary to be aerialized and be propelled past the rod tip forming a loop.

For rod acceleration to reach a certain rate, the rate of rod acceleration must be increasing to reach that necessary rate. And it has to do so smoothly without that sudden “jerk” that results in a tailing loop. I don’t how many more times I have to say this: As long as the acceleration and the changes in acceleration are SSSSSMMMMMOOOOOOOOTH, there will be no tailing loop.

Consider the haul as an example of a change in the rate of acceleration of the fly line. A haul adds velocity to the fly line. Adding velocity is acceleration. Adding velocity also will bend the rod. If the haul is a sudden “jerk” in the fly line AT THE WRONG TIME (for example early in the cast) a tailing loop will result BUT if the haul is a SMOOTHLY ACCELERATING pull AND the haul occurs at the correct time in the cast, then there is no tailing loop.

Changes in the rate of acceleration need not cause a deviation of the rod tip from the SLP (straight line path).

 

[denver1911]

Your math is correct but I consider a "jerk" to be a rapid change is acceleration that is TEMPORARY. It is a pulse in the acceleration rate = a rapid increase followed by a decrease.

It does not have to be so. In fact during casting the rate of acceleration can increase smoothly without a "jerk".

Perhaps Bruce Richards is able to explain it better than I. See his article, “More on Definitions… Casting Stroke” in the Spring 2016 Issue of The Loop.[/i]

https://flyfishersinternational.org/Portals/0/Documents/Casting/The Loop/2016.Spring.Loop.Update.pdf

”…..the casting stroke as the part of a fly cast that actually resulted in a loop being formed, more specifically, “rod motion sufficient to cause loop formation”.

So what does that really mean? It’s pretty simple, and specific. The rod motion that propels the line to casting speed is rod acceleration. When rod acceleration reaches a certain rate and is maintained long enough, it is “sufficient” to accelerate the line to the speed necessary to be aerialized and be propelled past the rod tip forming a loop.

For rod acceleration to reach a certain rate, the rate of rod acceleration must be increasing to reach that necessary rate. And it has to do so smoothly without that sudden “jerk” that results in a tailing loop. I don’t how many more times I have to say this: As long as the acceleration and the changes in acceleration are SSSSSMMMMMOOOOOOOOTH, there will be no tailing loop.

Consider the haul as an example of a change in the rate of acceleration of the fly line. A haul adds velocity to the fly line. Adding velocity is acceleration. Adding velocity also will bend the rod. If the haul is a sudden “jerk” in the fly line AT THE WRONG TIME (for example early in the cast) a tailing loop will result BUT if the haul is a SMOOTHLY ACCELERATING pull AND the haul occurs at the correct time in the cast, then there is no tailing loop.

Changes in the rate of acceleration need not cause a deviation of the rod tip from the SLP (straight line path).

Jerk can be smooth or even constant. But if the rate of change in acceleration is non-zero .. then there is a non-zero jerk. So can “snap” ... the rate of change of the jerk .. in units of distance divided by time to the fourth .. meters per second per second per second per second.

“2. Jerk, snap and higher derivatives
The terms jerk and snap mean very little to most people, including physicists and engineers. What are jerk and snap? Mathematically jerk is the third derivative of our position with respect to time and snap is the fourth derivative of our position with respect to time.”

Beyond velocity and acceleration: jerk, snap and higher derivatives - IOPscience