Beginner Question

drjay9051

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Just picked up a 6 wt outfit spooled with Wulff Ambush. I have read a lot and watched tons of videos. I imagine best route is one on one coaching.

Anyway I feel pretty good when I am casting just the fly line. at this point I can get the line out maybe 50 feet or so. I do find that the faster (harder) i try the worse my cast.

Likely ahead of myself but I tried double haul and I did feel the rod load up way more than without double haul. I know my timing is off but it was a good experience.

Big problem now is that this morning I tied on a small bass bug (popper) to practice .

My casts were far worse than with the fly line alone.

I know in fly fishing the line takes the lure as opposed to spin where it is reversed. however the popper weighs next to nothing so i don't know why the difficulty.

Wind resistance? Psychological? Other?

With the popper my distance suffered and I felt totally out of synch to the point I was getting the tippet/popper wrapped up in the rod tip.

Any simple thoughts on this problem?
 

dillon

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How long is your leader and what size is the tippet? Perhaps shortening the leader and increasing the tippet size would help. You might also try a smaller fly with less mass. Keep experimenting and practicing until the desired results are achieved. It's kind of hard to answer your question without seeing the set up and your cast.
 

drjay9051

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How long is your leader and what size is the tippet? Perhaps shortening the leader and increasing the tippet size would help. You might also try a smaller fly with less mass. Keep experimenting and practicing until the desired results are achieved. It's kind of hard to answer your question without seeing the set up and your cast.
Thanks.

9 ft leader with 3x tippet. This was suggested by a local bass guy who does fly and spin cast.

As I understand it bass do not spook easily so i never saw need for long tapered leader. Was going to just use a couple of feet of mono but deferred to the more knowledgable guy.
 

karstopo

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I don’t see any need for a 9’ 3x type of tapered leader with a bass popper. A six or seven foot stiffer leader would be easier to cast and still long enough not to mess up the fishing. I like your idea of a couple of feet of mono better than the 9’ one, but you might make it a bit longer than 2’ for a margin of error.

Constructing Leaders for Largemouth Bass | MidCurrent

I know a lot of folks emphasize the double haul, but honestly, I never use one ever in the bass and saltwater fishing I do. Somehow, I manage to catch a ton of fish without ever double hauling and I often fish in the wind, which is one justification for using a double haul. Many people that do end up using the double haul end up having it cause more issues with timing and loop formation than issues it solves. I think it’s way too early in your fly fishing to focus on the double haul anyway.

Yes, just relax and don’t try too hard. The rod will do the work. Coming from a conventional tackle background like myself, there’s a big tendency to overpower the fly rod or apply power too early in the stroke. Get good and accurate at shorter ranges and then slowly try to increase the range. Try casting with your off hand, there won’t be any muscle memory to fight from that side.
 

silver creek

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Just picked up a 6 wt outfit spooled with Wulff Ambush. I have read a lot and watched tons of videos. I imagine best route is one on one coaching.

Anyway I feel pretty good when I am casting just the fly line. at this point I can get the line out maybe 50 feet or so. I do find that the faster (harder) i try the worse my cast.

Likely ahead of myself but I tried double haul and I did feel the rod load up way more than without double haul. I know my timing is off but it was a good experience.

Big problem now is that this morning I tied on a small bass bug (popper) to practice .

My casts were far worse than with the fly line alone.

I know in fly fishing the line takes the lure as opposed to spin where it is reversed. however the popper weighs next to nothing so i don't know why the difficulty.

Wind resistance? Psychological? Other?

With the popper my distance suffered and I felt totally out of synch to the point I was getting the tippet/popper wrapped up in the rod tip.

Any simple thoughts on this problem?
Take a video of yourself casting with and without the popper and post it.

The leader and fly "wrapped up in the rod tip" indicates a tailing loop which indicates a sudden application of power rather than a smmmmooooooothhhh cast.
 

jspfishing

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Oh yea, I remember tossing a popper for the first time. It was weird. It does catch a lot of wind resistance. It just going to take practice and reps to get the feel for them. As for double hauling, I was like you. Learning it in the first week etc. I did learn it quickly, but when I took a class with Ed Jaworski, he said my double haul was compensating for some errors in my cast. So I had to go back and fix the issues without the haul. I do agree that everyone should learn it, but start to implement it after you're proficient without it so you wouldn't have take a step backwards like I did. The double haul to me is necessary. It makes casting effortless. Better to have it then not have it in my opinion.
 

silver creek

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Likely ahead of myself but I tried double haul and I did feel the rod load up way more than without double haul. I know my timing is off but it was a good experience.

Big problem now is that this morning I tied on a small bass bug (popper) to practice .

My casts were far worse than with the fly line alone.

I know in fly fishing the line takes the lure as opposed to spin where it is reversed. however the popper weighs next to nothing so i don't know why the difficulty.

Wind resistance? Psychological? Other?

With the popper my distance suffered and I felt totally out of synch to the point I was getting the tippet/popper wrapped up in the rod tip.

Any simple thoughts on this problem?

Oh yea, I remember tossing a popper for the first time. It was weird. It does catch a lot of wind resistance. It just going to take practice and reps to get the feel for them. As for double hauling, I was like you. Learning it in the first week etc. I did learn it quickly, but when I took a class with Ed Jaworski, he said my double haul was compensating for some errors in my cast. So I had to go back and fix the issues without the haul. I do agree that everyone should learn it, but start to implement it after you're proficient without it so you wouldn't have take a step backwards like I did. The double haul to me is necessary. It makes casting effortless. Better to have it then not have it in my opinion.
Definitely not better until you master it. It can lead to tailing loops fouling the fly line, leader and fly. Since I do not have a video of you casting, here is what I think may be happening with what you have described. You may be hauling too early and too hard in the casting stroke which could cause the "the tippet/popper wrapped up in the rod tip."

Too early a haul can lead to a tailing loop. Early in the casting stoke, the rod is only slightly loaded and a sudden haul can cause the tip to bend, causing a concave dip in the SLP, causing a tailing loop. EARLY dips in the SLP will cause LATE tailing loops. You said your leader and fly was catching on the rod tip ------> a LATE TAILING LOOP.

A dip early in the rod stroke will have more time to travel down the line and cause a LATE tailing loop. A dip of the rod tip LATE in rod stroke will have less time to travel down the line and cause an EARLY tailing loop. This is the explanation for the seemingly paradoxical early timing of the fly rod dip and the location of the tailing loop late in the cast.

Aitor Coteron has done extensive video studies of tailing loops. He has a series of videos on Vimeo that demonstrate the timing of the rod tip dip during the casting stroke and the resultant timing of the tailing loops during the forward cast. A hard and long haul is performed during 3 forward casting strokes.

The timing of the haul is early, mid and late. The haul causes the rod tip to dip down as the fly line suddenly accelerated by the haul. This increases the energy in the cast and the rod must bend to absorb some of this energy as potential energy.

This haul simulates the timing of a sudden acceleration during the casting stroke which would cause the same rod tip dip.

Late Tail = Early Haul

Late tail on Vimeo


Middle Tail = Middle Haul

Tail in the middle on Vimeo


Early Tail = Late Haul

Early tail on Vimeo


The dip of the rod tip can be VERY VERY difficult to see, even with slow motion. See the analysis in the discussion below:

Mysterious Creature Rides Again << One More Last Cast

Finally, if a beginner mistimes the forward casting stoke and begins TOO EARLY, the backcast will not have extended. This means that there is too little fly line mass lined up behind the caster to load the rod for the forward cast. So the caster has to speed up the acceleration to get the forward cat to extend and this sudden acceleration causes a tailing loop.

Dissection of a Tailing Loop on Vimeo
 
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dennyk

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I'd just focus on casting without the haul and get your timing correct. At times I use a single haul on my back cast but that's about it. In time your casting will turn into a "feel" without ant conscience effort.

For bass fishing my leader is typically 3' of Maxima Ultragreen 15 pound test and a 3' section of 12 pound test, also the Maxima. 6' in length total. You won't have any problems turning over bass bugs.

Denny
 

e caster

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drjay9051,

You are casting overhead?

Wulff Ambush is not designed for overhead casting; it is for Roll & single hand Spey. It gets clunky real fast when thrown overhead.

For overhead casting I recommend a more 'normal' taper, such as the Wulff Long Belly.

Craig

Ambush(R) Fly Line - Royal Wulff
 

transporti686

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Hello, I am new on this forum. Sorry for my question, but I want to know, how much room behind me I need to roll cast 9wt spey fly line with 60ft head with my 14ft 9wt double handed fly rod?

Manny thanks.
 

transporti686

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Hi, how big streamer can I used for spey cast with Vision ACE scandi shooting head intermediate/sink2, lenght of head 11,5m, 570grain, please? The DH fly rod is 14ft 9/10wt. Many thanks.
 
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wjc

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Transporti,

You might have better luck if you go to the menu and scroll down to the "Spey Casting" and equipment forum.

Many of us here in this forum have never cast a spey rod. In fact I have never even seen a spey rod despite fly fishing for over 60 years now.
 
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