How do I tighten my loops?

[haziz]

An experienced angler while watching me cast commented that my loops were too wide/broad/fat (not really sure how to describe it). How do I go about "tightening" my loops while casting?

Thanks.

 

[Rip Tide]

Imagine your elbow is on a shelf
That should help control the arc that forms wide loops

 

[mcnerney]

YouTube

 

[silver creek]

An experienced angler while watching me cast commented that my loops were too wide/broad/fat (not really sure how to describe it). How do I go about "tightening" my loops while casting?

Thanks.

The shape of the casting loop mirrors the path of the rod tip.

An open loop means the rod tip path is CONVEX. You need to stop over rotating the rod during the rod stroke and have the proper stop points.

I suspect this is what is happening and that you have a windshield wiper or igloo cast.

Here is a video of Carl McNeil that is using the elbow forward foundation casting stroke. Note his rod stroke in the video and and compare it to the illustration.

YouTube

There are many good threads on casting. Here are a few that discuss the foundation elbow forward casting stroke:

Casting...What does it take...? - Page 3

Casting style - action preference...

Over or under lining a rod, what are the advantages and disadvantages?

Frustrated... thinking about giving up fly fishing.

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/forums/fly-cast/299291-top-3-bettering-your-cast.html

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/f...tical-casting-vs-non-vertical.html#post548833

http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/f...lff-fly-casting-video-winston.html#post622280


If you are unable to correct the open loops because you continue to lay back the wrist on the back cast and and also flop the wrist forward on the forward cast, then I recommend you change your grip to the 3 point grip. It will prevent the wrist flop on the back cast.

I have posted several times on the 3 point grip:

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/...tupid-stupid-stupid.html?posted=1#post1103735

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LW8eeCH79Ko

 

[brownbass]

What they said above and if there are any fly shops in your area they may offer lessons. Youtube is a wealth of information on casting but it helps to have someone check your casting for flaws. That and practice will help a bunch.

Bill

 

[karstopo]

I agree with all of the above. I would add, if you can find a good open space, go out, cast for a while and play around. Try changing things up with your arm and watch your loops. Do a few exaggerated igloo casts then try not to. See if you can create a tailing loop and then don’t.

If you already have bad habits, I doubt doing these things will make them worse.

I like doing this from time to time, make big open loops and then tailing loops and then try to have the narrow, sexy ones. Reminds me I’m in control of the rod plane and loops and not the other way around. You might even play around with the off hand side and casting that way. No muscle memory to fight there, that is highly likely. Put up a target, make it fun, breathe, relax. Try a couple different weight rods if you have them. You are in control. The rod just follows your lead.

No matter what, spending time with a rod casting will build stamina.

 

[dillon]

When my line gains speed the loops narrow. A crisp haul or two seems to facilitate this.

 

[silver creek]

YouTube

Larry,

The video you posted is trying to deomonstrate the low elbow casting technique of Lefty Kreh, but he is misrepresenting it as I will explain at the end of my post with a video of Lefty demonstrating his method.

I think the straight line stroke path of the casting hand in the video above is wrong. My opinion is that if a fly caster actually does that, a tailing loop will result because the chord of the fly rod as it bends will bring the rod tip closer to the casting hand creating a concave rod tip path.

Rather than the rod stroke above, I again suggest the foundation stroke I posted before. Both Steve Rajeff, the best fly caster the USA had produced and Chris Korich, another USA fly casting champion, both use the elbow forward foundation stroke as the basis for their casting.

It is an easy stroke to learn. Because it is also a very SIMPLE casting stroke, it is a casting stoke that lends itself to consistency and consistency results in accuracy.

Here is Steve Rajeff at the Long beach Casting Club demonstrating the stroke.

YouTube

Here is Chris Korich using the same basic stroke in slow motion.

YouTube

Maxine McCormick also uses the foundation casting stoke. She is the youngest gold medal winner ever in the women in the world fly casting championships. Note the elbow forward casting stroke as she practices her casting for accuracy in the WIND out to 70 feet.

YouTube

At 13, Maxine McCormick beats her coach at nationals - American AnglerAmerican Angler

"Last year, at the world championship in Estonia, Maxine became the youngest gold-medal winner at a world-class sporting event in history when she won the women’s event. She shared the stage with her coach, Korich, who won the men’s world championship."

The video below is Cris Korich and Maxine at the 2016 World Championships Accuracy Event in Estonia. Cris is left handed and is on the left side of the start of the video. At about 1 minute, the video switches to Maxine is casting on the left side.

NOTE: BOTH keep the reel toward the target during their cast and they both use the elbow forward cast rather than the low elbow technique of the video that recommends a straight line rod stroke to the side.

Trout Accuracy. World Championship in Flycasting Nelijärve 2016 - YouTube


Why I disagree with the video can be seen when we compare it with Lefty Kreh’s video below. The video I disagree with says to take the casting HAND back and forth in a STRAIGHT LINE ROD STROKE. He is trying to describe the low arm technique of Lefty Kreh. Instead of saying take the hand back in a straight line, Lefty says cast as if the ELBOW is on the level surface of a table. He does not even say to take the elbow back in a straight line. If the elbow is on a table, the elbow can trace a curved path on that surface as it moves forward and back.

This is difference is CRUCIAL!!! Lefty’s technique allows the for the rotation of the rod stoke as the elbow opens and closes and as the shoulder joint rotates forward and back. These two anatomical points of rotation allow for a CONVEX rod stroke that compensates for the shortening of the fly rod. Then the rod tip can travel in a Straight Line Path (SLP).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57Ux1pqzUKQ

Note that Rip Tide references the elbow on the table in an earlier post.

Imagine your elbow is on a shelf
That should help control the arc that forms wide loops

Where I disagree with Rip a bit is that whether you cast with the overhead elbow forward technique or the Lefty Kreh style low elbow technique, both can lead to very open loops, tight loops, or closed loops with “wind knots.” The crucial thing is to keep first thing first; and that is remember that the rod tip path determines loop shape and not whether we cast with the elbow forward or low elbow technique.

 

[clsmith131]

In addition to technique, you should consider the line you are using. Some lines are designed to help you keep your loop open when throwing weighted patterns. The Rio Striper line is one such line.

 

[silver creek]

In addition to technique, you should consider the line you are using. Some lines are designed to help you keep your loop open when throwing weighted patterns. The Rio Striper line is one such line.

Here is the taper profile for the Rio Striper line.

Since flies follow the leader, and leaders follow the fly line, and fly lines follow the rod tip: how does a fly line help create an open loop? It cannot!

What I think you mean is that a fly line taper can be optimized for heavier or more wind resistant flies. Regardless of the fly line taper, it is the rod tip path that determines whether the rod leg of the fly line and the fly leg of the fly line will cross and get tangled.

The best method of avoiding a tailing loop is to separate the back cast plane (as in geometric plane, in this case a horizontal casting plane for the back cast) from the forward cast plane (in this case a vertical casting plane) so the rod leg and fly leg have to be separated in space. They can can cross in the vertical dimension but are separated horizontally in space so they never can touch or tangle with each other.

This is the Belgian Cast that has been mentioned in a previous post as the rod stroke to use for casting heavy flies like some streamers.

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/...reamer-can-i-cast-3.html?posted=1#post1098921

 

[fishing hobo]

Silver you need to correct the diagram of the tailing loop it is not correct (rod tip path is, fly leg of line isn't)

 

[ibookje]

Jeez... I think the topic starter has already left the building.

Fly casting is pretty simple but we tend to make it too complex. Make it simple by reducing the amount of information to just one or two.

Go to a fly shop with a good caster (that’s the guy who casts effortlessly) and ask him to give you some pointers.

 

[silver creek]

Silver you need to correct the diagram of the tailing loop it is not correct (rod tip path is, fly leg of line isn't)

I think you are mistaken.

Here is the illustration I posted:

Here is Jason Borger high speed stop motion casting a tailing loop. Note the fly is UNDER the rod leg and the fly leg is crossing from below the rod leg to form the loop above the rod leg.

Here is a page about loops from the FFF study guide. Note the tailing loop diagram which shows the identical crossing path as my original illustration.

Here's a photograph by Bruce Richards.

Here is a video of a haul causing the rod tip dip of a tailing loop. Note the fly leg crosses from below to above the rod leg and the fly catches the rod leg as it is crossing from below to above. The sudden haul simulates the sudden application of power that causes a rod tip dip that causes the tailing loop.

Tail in the middle on Vimeo

Silver you need to correct the diagram of the tailing loop it is not correct (rod tip path is, fly leg of line isn't)

I think you are mistaken.

Here is the illustration I posted:

Here is Jason Borger high speed stop motion casting a tailing loop. Note the fly is UNDER the rod leg and the fly leg is crossing from below the rod leg to form the loop above the rod leg.

Here is a page about loops from the FFF study guide. Note the tailing loop diagram which shows the identical crossing path as my original illustration.

Here's a photograph by Bruce Richards.

Here is a video of a haul causing the rod tip dip of a tailing loop. Note the fly leg crosses from below to above the rod leg and the fly catches the rod leg as it is crossing from below to above. The sudden haul simulates the sudden application of power that causes a rod tip dip that causes the tailing loop.

Tail in the middle on Vimeo

Here’s an Orvis video that shows the fly leg UNDER the rod leg. The video note states: ”A tailing loop is when the top leg of the casting loop falls below the bottom leg. This causes the two legs to cross, which is a recipe for disaster.”

YouTube

 

[e caster]

Hi Silver,

The attached is not a Tailing Loop: it is an Underslung Loop... Bypassing legs, like scissors.
It exhibits no fly leg concavity. The fly leg is below the rod leg, yes, but it is rising, rising straight with zero dip.

Underslung loops are common when carrying long lengths of line as well when throwing high density heads.

Underslung loops are not a fault.

Respectfully,
Craig

ps - not the first time this illustration (and similar ones) has been labeled a Tail...

 

[e caster]

Also:

Pete's (Orvis) quote is incorrect. Pete is a friend, super good guy, but even good guys are wrong sometimes


Here’s an Orvis video that shows the fly leg UNDER the rod leg. The video note states: ”A tailing loop is when the top leg of the casting loop falls below the bottom leg. This causes the two legs to cross, which is a recipe for disaster.”


Crossing legs are not necessarily touching legs - they can bypass. Crossing legs can be blown into each other by a side wind, yes, but that is still not a tail.

 

[e caster]

An experienced angler while watching me cast commented that my loops were too wide/broad/fat (not really sure how to describe it). How do I go about "tightening" my loops while casting?

Thanks.

Lot's of good tips already. I'll add this:

Try to put your Mind's Eye up on the top section of the rod as you come forward - Throw the line from up there, not from the cork. Two analogies: Throwing an apple (potato) off the end of a stick, and throwing a ball using a Jai alai mitt. The object (ball, or line) is not thrown from the hand per say; it is thrown off the end of the lever.

Craig

 

[silver creek]

Hi Silver,

The attached is not a Tailing Loop: it is an Underslung Loop... Bypassing legs, like scissors.
It exhibits no fly leg concavity. The fly leg is below the rod leg, yes, but it is rising, rising straight with zero dip.

Underslung loops are common when carrying long lengths of line as well when throwing high density heads.

Underslung loops are not a fault.

Respectfully,
Craig

ps - not the first time this illustration (and similar ones) has been labeled a Tail...

Craig,

Now I understand what you were getting at. Your first post did not give the reason you said that the illustration was not a tailing loop.

An underslung loop occurs when gravity causes the fly leg of the loop to drop lower than the rod leg. This occurs when then delay between the back cast to the following forward cast is long enough to allow the back cast to fall enough for the underslung loop. And will agree that underslung loops are NOT tailing loops. I suppose you could argue that at low line speeds, a shorter cast could result in an underslung loop. It is in the interpretation of the image.

The lack of the secondary curve is what you are getting at. I agree that the image is deficient in this regard.

A problem with calling the illustration a typical underslung loop is the position of the rod tip at the middle of the illustration. It is well below the position of the rod tip at the first image and the last image indicating a dip of the rod tip that causes a tailing loop. I is not a slightly concave dip in the rod tip but a significant dip relative to the rod length in the illustration, I understand that this is an illustration an not taken from actual rod positions or from an actual tailing loop. The point of the illustration is to demonstrate the rod tip dip.

Although I still think the illustration is demonstrative of the rod tip dip of a tailing loop, I now understand why you correctly think it is an underslung loop. Thank you for pointing this out!

BTW, for those who are wondering what we are talking about, I think this illustration demonstrates the difference between the underslung (trailing) loop and tailing loop correctly.

Here is a better illustration of a tailing loop from an actual cast

 

[e caster]

Silver,

Phew... Yes. We good.

And correct, I left out that a slowish cast can become underslung.

I did though state in my first post the reason it is not a tail: "It exhibits no fly leg concavity".
The concavity is evidence of exponential force, aka not smooth acceleration.

Another fun fact: All (most... ) Roll casts and Speys have crossing legs similar to an underslung.

Thanks for all the info. you donate to this forum - you are a generous member!

Craig

Apologies to any members with glazed over eyes. Now back to our regularly scheduled thread...

 

[JDR]

The discussions on NAFFF are nothing short of amazing!

 

[clsmith131]

Here is the taper profile for the Rio Striper line.


Since flies follow the leader, and leaders follow the fly line, and fly lines follow the rod tip: how does a fly line help create an open loop? It cannot!

What I think you mean is that a fly line taper can be optimized for heavier or more wind resistant flies. Regardless of the fly line taper, it is the rod tip path that determines whether the rod leg of the fly line and the fly leg of the fly line will cross and get tangled.

The best method of avoiding a tailing loop is to separate the back cast plane (as in geometric plane, in this case a horizontal casting plane for the back cast) from the forward cast plane (in this case a vertical casting plane) so the rod leg and fly leg have to be separated in space. They can can cross in the vertical dimension but are separated horizontally in space so they never can touch or tangle with each other.

This is the Belgian Cast that has been mentioned in a previous post as the rod stroke to use for casting heavy flies like some streamers.

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/...reamer-can-i-cast-3.html?posted=1#post1098921

You don't think the thicker taper inherently forms wider loops due to it's geometry? It seems common sense to me. A thinner line is naturally going to be more flexible than a thicker one. Thus, more likely to form a tighter loop. While the thicker line will have more tensile strength, with more tendency to resist the compressive weight of the top leg of the loop and fly. This tension, or the lines tendency to want to straighten out, is then opposed aerodynamically: the thicker the line the more opposition it meets by way of wind and air mass. So the opposition of tension and wind resistance, coupled with the centripetal force of the fly's mass travelling around the loop, works to deteriorate the wave dynamics (which is really what a "loop" in a fly line is) of the cast. This is why the thicker tapers are optimal for weighted flies.

In terms of vector physics, you are 100% right. The path of the fly's flight is determined by the path of the the rod tip. However; the physical properties of the line, its material and its geometry have undeniable impact on the fly's trajectory in practical application.