Big Flies and Sink Tips

[lancer09]

Well the time of year has come that I want to try and start getting some flies down real deep like some big streamers with a sink tip. I have also encountered a problem casting.

I've got a 6 weight rod with a WF floating line, with a 5 foot orvis sink tip section attached to 1.5 foot of the butt part of the leader. The most recent fly I was trying to cast was a size 6 TA Bunker.

My rod is definitely a relativelly inexpensive one as it's a Dogwood canyon rod from bass pro, but I've had it for 10 years and it has been awesome all this time.

I also taught myself to fly cast and can really shoot a good bit of line, When I looked up how to double haul, I realized that that's what I had been doing since I started casting..

SO, what are some tips to help get big heavy flies out there farther than what i'm getting, which is abou 35 feet.

 

[mcnerney]

Lancer09: Diagnosing casting issues is difficult over the internet. I'm not familiar with the Dogwood Canyon line of rods so I went to their web site. They don't specifically say what action the rod is, but just guessing from the description below I'd say a medium action, but someone with experience with these rods hopefully with chime in. "Designed specifically to help introductory fly anglers excel in the sport. Dogwood Canyon™ rods are forgiving as your skills improve". A 6 wt fly rod should be able to throw a sink tip line and a #6 streamer further than 35 ft, but you will be handicaped using a medium action rod. A fast action rod would be more appropriate to throw that extra weight. I use a 6wt fast action Orvis TLS rod I bought off EBay with a SA Kelly Galloup Streamer Express 200 grain sink tip, and I'm no expert caster for sure and I can throw that line 60 ft easily. Once you get the casting issues lined out take a look at Kelly's articulated streamers, they have amazing action in the water.

Larry

 

[lancer09]

I figured as much, dont get me wrong, I can throgh a normal.. small.. fly close to ni nety feet. I'm goign to start looking at fast action rods and see what i can find probably used. I've thrown fast actions in some heavier weights and far prefereed them over a medium, which i'm assuming mine is. I'd like to start adding some rods in heavier weights and lower but I really like a six with how versatile it can be. Before any of that though, it's tim eto invest in a new reel, as the drag on mine has stopped working.

 

[mcnerney]

I figured there wasn't much wrong with your casting. Try to cast the rod you are planning on purchasing before laying out the hard cash. Like I said above I buy stuff off EBay but I have been using Orvis rods since the early 80's and their rating system seems to be pretty consistent. Take a hard look at the Allen Fly Fishing reels and rods. I don't know how the rods are but the reels are a fantastic and very reasonably priced. Send a PM to Justin he offers a good discount to forum members.
alpha_workaaa

Here is a review on their reels:
http://www.theflyfishingforum.com/f...review-allen-fly-fishing-xl-5-6-fly-reel.html

Larry

 

[wt bash]

You can do it, just slow way down with the medium rod and try to false cast as little as possible maybe 2 strokes and let it fly.

 

[Ard]

Water load the rod and use a single back cast. Allow the back cast to straiten out and then let it fly. Practice with positioning the line prior to the "water load" will help you to make the presentation cast where you want.

 

[ChrisinselwynNZ]

Water load the rod and use a single back cast. Allow the back cast to straiten out and then let it fly. Practice with positioning the line prior to the "water load" will help you to make the presentation cast where you want.

This is how I cast big flies on my six wt (up to 4xlong 1/0 weighted and dumbelled), the most important thing is that the line is strait on the water, you start low and gain speed through the back cast untill it stops and is strait to give the best rod loading

also try a sinking line. At 40' even an intermedate line will out fish a 5' sink tip

Chris

 

[yatahey]

Water load the rod and use a single back cast. Allow the back cast to straiten out and then let it fly. Practice with positioning the line prior to the "water load" will help you to make the presentation cast where you want.

This is good advice and it sounds like it may be your problem particularly on the back cast. Large heavy flies need to be allowed to go as far back on the back cast as you can get them without falling off at the end of the back cast to be able to shoot forward with the greatest velocity. If your back cast timing is off by not waiting long enough before you forward cast, the weight of the fly will work against you when you cast forward by slowing down before the weight can pull the line forward shooting the line. If your timing is off your forward cast will tend to collapse before it has a chance to shoot the line. Try waiting a little longer on the back cast before you start your forward cast.

 

[Ard]

Have you ever gotten the problem solved? When thinking on all of the years that I fished the No Wading section of Spring Creek where a back cast was often impossible I realize that I was using a single Spey style cast and doing it with a 9' 5 weight. I fished the rod on that creek for 15 years using a WF 5 floater with a 48" lead head on the end of the line. On the lead head I had 6 - 8' of eight or ten pound leader with a size 2 or 4 Answer (feather wing streamer weighted with copper wire) and was able to get hung on the opposite side of the widest channels regularly. What worked for me may not be your cup of tea. You need to find a style of cast that will do what you need. When you find it, someday you'll discover that someone named it 50 or more years ago and now you know how to do it.

Ard

 

[wjc]

Lancer,

Yatahey needs to get his little man at the bottom of his post off the speed and onto some tranquilizers.

He has very severe pause and line feeding problems, but is obviously casting in one of the other 11 parallel universes where the laws of our universe don't apply. In our universe, he would not be able to keep the line in the air.

Look at the big belly of line hanging down between the stripping guide and his line hand at the start of his backcast. That slack is not taken up until his backcast stroke is very nearly totally completed. In our uinvese, the line would collapse in front of him and fall to the water.

He has no pause whatsoever either, so that big loop of line has to be taken out before the end of the line moves in the direction of his cast.

When feeding line back into the cast with the line hand, you need to feel line tension in that line hand. If not, the line will not feed in, and you will have slack in the line for the next casting cycle. So feed it back in slow, so you can feel the tension.

Basically, you should be feeling tension in the line hand for 99 percent of the stroke. You should lose it only for a very brief period of time right around when the rod is unloading.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[lancer09]

For the most part I've got it fixed, it was just a matter of slowing WAAAAAAAY down. But I can get them out to a fishable distance now. Thanks for the advice everyone.

 

[Guest1]

If you are still having trouble, video record yourself casting. Take a look at the video when you are setting at home and not all frustrated. You will most likely be able to spot your faults on your own. If you can't, make it a file you can e-mail and one of us will look at it.

 

[wjc]

You will most likely be able to spot your faults on your own. If you can't, make it a file you can e-mail and one of us will look at it.

Videos are one of, if not the best way to analyse casting problems, not only by you, but by casting coaches as well. When taking them, don't worry about not being able to see the line. Just place the camera far enough away to get your upper body from your line hand at its lowest position up to at least half the rod in the frame.

You can also upload videos to you-tube, and make them private so only people you send a link to will be able to watch them. Several casting cycles are best, so chances are better that you can catch a stopped frame closer to where you want to than if just one casting cycle were taken.

Cheers,
Jim

 

[Guest1]

I taught myself to spey cast. Between watching myself on video, and a nice gentleman in Scotland looking at it, we got rid of my bad habits in no time. There is no better way, than video short of having a serious instructor follow you around.

 

[lancer09]

I really am not having much trouble anymore, consistently I can throw a good cast. It was a combo of eliminating false casts as much as possible and getting everything slowed down. I started fishing the bigger flies without the sinktip until I got good throwing those then switched it up and put on the sink tip and just get going with that. It was just excentuating what I did with the big flies even more so with the sink tip on.

 

[wjc]

Good deal Lancer! The more you do it the better you get at it. At least for quite a while anyway.

 

[Frank Whiton]

Hi lancer09,

Here is my opinion.

I think that adding the sinking section of line is your problem. You have a weight forward fly line that is designed to turn over a leader and fly. The level section of sink tip line added to the end of the fly line will effect the turn over of the setup. Your casting distance is probably being limited by the weight of the level section of sink tip line at the front of the fly line. You fly line was not made to turn over the add on sink tip, plus a leader, plus a fly. Add in a slow/moderate action rod and the results you are getting would be expected.

I know a lot of people use this add on sinking lines but I dislike them with a passion. You will do much better with a WF Sink Tip fly line and a weighted fly than your present setup. How deep are you trying to get?

Frank

 

[ChrisinselwynNZ]

Hi lancer09,

Here is my opinion.

I think that adding the sinking section of line is your problem. You have a weight forward fly line that is designed to turn over a leader and fly. The level section of sink tip line added to the end of the fly line will effect the turn over of the setup. Your casting distance is probably being limited by the weight of the level section of sink tip line at the front of the fly line. You fly line was not made to turn over the add on sink tip, plus a leader, plus a fly. Add in a slow/moderate action rod and the results you are getting would be expected.

I know a lot of people use this add on sinking lines but I dislike them with a passion. You will do much better with a WF Sink Tip fly line and a weighted fly than your present setup. How deep are you trying to get?

Frank

Frank you can get tappered sink tips now some with aggressive tapers that will turn upto 12' of level tippet! (similar results to what is posable with fureled but costy:secret they come in 5-15' sections they turn very well

Chris

 

[wjc]

Chris,

I hope you and all your loved ones and friends have not been injured or financially ruined in the most recent catastrophe to hit New Zealand.

You are all in my thoughts.

Best,
Jim

 

[mcnerney]

Chris,

I hope you and all your loved ones and friends have not been injured or financially ruined in the most recent catastrophe to hit New Zealand.

You are all in my thoughts.

Best,
Jim

Jim: Same goes for me. Chris moved from Selwyn to Christchurch a few months back and the recent earthquake was centered just south of town. From the news reports Christchurch took a very heavy hit. I heard from a friend here in town the harbor has major damage.

Larry