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  1. #21

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by myt1 View Post
    Lefty starts his video talking about a "salute cast" where his hand starts high and ends low. He says this is how not to do it.

    Yet Fly Casting Jedi and Jason Borger, both extremely expert casters, use a stroke that looks very similar to the "salute cast", the one Lefty says isn't so good.

    So there must be something else going on. Apparently, I was mistakenly focusing on the position of the wrist through out the cast as a key measure of a successful casting stroke, and that seems to be wrong, seeing how the above expert casters move their wrists in different fashions.
    The reason that Gary Borger, Jason Borger, Mel Krieger, Joan Wulff, Steve and Tim Rajeff, Jerry Siem, and Chris Korich, and the youngest world champion ever, Maxine McCormick use the elbow forward cast is that it is both a highly accurate cast AND is the easiest casting stoke to teach and learn.

    It is a simple stroke that requires NO body rotation or other motion than the casting arm so it is highly repeatable and it is easier to produce a consistent rod stroke. There are fewer variables than with Lefty Kreh's casting stroke. That is why it is the preferred rod stroke for teaching.

    The backcast stop is a vertical casting forearm with the wrist is flipped back (position 2) so the rod is at 1:00 and the forward cast stop is about half way down to a horizontal forearm (position 2). Then you follow the line down until the forearm is horizontal (position 1 = starting and ending position).

    The cast is easily practiced with a pencil or pen as the rod and the person can pantomime the cast while watching TV, or sitting, or walking, or even driving.







    In the illustration above, "A" is Acceleration, "L" is Loop Formation, and "E" is Energy Transfer. The graph at the lower right demonstrates the rapid change in rod tip velocity and rod angle during the "L" phase. Note that the graph in the image above corresponds to the first part of the casting graph from the Sage Casting Analyzer below.



    Fly Casting Analyzer - Wikipedia

    The Analyzer

    Finally, here is a video of Maxine McCormick using the elbow forward cast in practice and Chris Korich and Maxine using the elbow forward style at the 2016World Accuracy Championships. The question for you is why would anyone want to learn a different stroke as a beginner?

    At 13, Maxine McCormick beats her coach at nationals - American AnglerAmerican Angler



    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  3. #22

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Fewer variables?... no idea what you mean. He only has 4 rules, and you're posting charts, graphs, videos, slo mo, maps, GPS coordinates?... (kidding! It's all about enjoying ourselves outdoors- right?!)

    What that short stroke requires is a higher level of skill. You list a bunch of elites. I work with everyman...and woman...and kids. And for many of them, who have struggled with wind, saltwater class gear, heavy flies... the longer stroke, use of their body and not their wrist- finally allows them to cast in these challenging circumstances- and to overcome the limitations forced upon them by the confinement of short stroke, forward elbow style casting. Longer lever is the equalizer for many. It eases the pressure on timing, strength, size- wrists that can't make a solid stop. That was why he developed the style in the first place- and yes, it does make all the difference for those who need it. Obviously, not everyone does- elite level athletes can accomplish amazing things with the forward elbow style. Lefty opened up the sport to those who struggled with it.

    Cheers to anyone who helps others enjoy this sport more- and to those who put their pride aside and ask for assistance.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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  5. #23
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    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    I agree with osseous,real world circumstances are very different to that footage of the young girl casting into a stagnant swimming pool with rings in it.Good luck to her as it's a great example of muscle memory,but totally opposite to (for example) what's required on a wide open windy flat.

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  7. #24

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by osseous View Post
    Fewer variables?... no idea what you mean. He only has 4 rules, and you're posting charts, graphs, videos, slo mo, maps, GPS coordinates?... (kidding! It's all about enjoying ourselves outdoors- right?!)

    What that short stroke requires is a higher level of skill. You list a bunch of elites. I work with everyman...and woman...and kids. And for many of them, who have struggled with wind, saltwater class gear, heavy flies... the longer stroke, use of their body and not their wrist- finally allows them to cast in these challenging circumstances- and to overcome the limitations forced upon them by the confinement of short stroke, forward elbow style casting. Longer lever is the equalizer for many. It eases the pressure on timing, strength, size- wrists that can't make a solid stop. That was why he developed the style in the first place- and yes, it does make all the difference for those who need it. Obviously, not everyone does- elite level athletes can accomplish amazing things with the forward elbow style. Lefty opened up the sport to those who struggled with it.

    Cheers to anyone who helps others enjoy this sport more- and to those who put their pride aside and ask for assistance.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    Here are some of the best former and current casting instructors in our sport and their "foundation" cast that they teach beginners.

    Casting instructors do not pick the most difficult casting motion to teach beginners. On the contrary, they teach a basic easy to learn fundamental or foundation casting stroke. Therefore, I disagree that the elbow forward stroke requires a higher level of skill. It actually is the easiest cast to learn.

    You call them elitists. I call them the best of the best casters and casting instructors in the USA.

    Jim Green is the dean of fly casting instructors and the founder of the first fly casting schools in the USA - The Fenwick Fly Casting Schools

    Secrets of Fly Casting with Jim Green | MidCurrent

    Jim Green Fly Casting – the limp cobra

    Blog & news from the custom rod shop - Custom Fly Fishing Rods by Chris Lantzy, Custom Rod Maker

    The Perfect Loop - Christopher Rownes



    Mel Krieger also picks the hardest rod stroke to teach.



    Joan Wulff also doesnít know the best basic fly casting stroke.



    Neither does Jason Borger



    Or casting Instructor Carl McNeil on the Easiest way to get a tight loop with a SLP of the rod tip. Notice his basic cast.



    Or Bill Gammelís Basic casting stroke for a SLP. f



    Or Tim Rajeff

    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  9. #25
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    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Hey, myt1, ready for that lesson yet?

    Cheers,
    Graeme
    IFFF Certified Casting Instructor

    Failing to practice is practicing to fail.

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  11. #26

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    I did not call them "elitists". I called them elite. Possessing superior abilities.

    Maxine McCormick was "discovered" at 9 years old at the casting ponds in SF. They could see she "had something special".
    Hmmmm

    Long lever, or short lever- for the average fly caster? Because Rajeffs and McCormicks don't come along very often...

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  12. #27

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by dynaflow View Post
    I agree with osseous,real world circumstances are very different to that footage of the young girl casting into a stagnant swimming pool with rings in it.Good luck to her as it's a great example of muscle memory,but totally opposite to (for example) what's required on a wide open windy flat.
    I bet that little Girl would kick your ass wherever you preferred

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  14. #28
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    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by dynaflow View Post
    I agree with osseous,real world circumstances are very different to that footage of the young girl casting into a stagnant swimming pool with rings in it.Good luck to her as it's a great example of muscle memory,but totally opposite to (for example) what's required on a wide open windy flat.
    Umm you might want to reconsider that statement, when Maxine won the last world championship it was held in England right on the ocean, the competition was held in 20 mph winds. She practiced for that competition by casting in the afternoon winds of SF Bay which come up every afternoon so saying she can only cast in calm conditions is ridiculous to say the least.

    Here is a quote from one of the news articles written about her 2018 World Casting Competition "Perhaps only a fly-angler can appreciate that her 2018 performance was across a white-capped body of water at oceanís edge in 20 mile-per-hour winds, gusting to 50." That was what she casted in to take the gold in the accuracy competition (same rings you see in the calm picture) second place was 21 points behind her. She also won gold in the distance competion with a cast of 189'.

    Now that is some real world conditions. I would venture to say that if she can cast 189 feet in those conditions and she can also place a fly in an 18" circle at 60' in those conditions, I believe she could do quite well in the flats and probably any where else she had a mind to go fishing. By the way she loves fishing too.

    Maxine was brought to the casting ponds in SF by her father because he wanted her to get some fly casting lessons so they could go fishing together. She caught on real good...

    Regards,

    Tim C.

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  16. #29
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    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcorfey View Post
    Here is a quote from one of the news articles written about her 2018 World Casting Competition "Perhaps only a fly-angler can appreciate that her 2018 performance was across a white-capped body of water at ocean’s edge in 20 mile-per-hour winds, gusting to 50." That was what she casted in to take the gold in the accuracy competition (same rings you see in the calm picture) second place was 21 points behind her. She also won gold in the distance competion with a cast of 189'.
    She's a great caster but you can't believe everything written in the papers. That 189' (57.5m) was "Salmon Distance Cast", which is a two hander event. She finished second in the Sea Trout event with a distance of 47.5m and fifth in the trout distance event with 35m. All of which are fantastic results! Not everyone can cast 35m (114') with a 5wt line.

    Just saying "Don't feel bad if you can't reach 189' with your trout gear ... "

    Cheers,
    Graeme


    (Full results tabulated here.)
    IFFF Certified Casting Instructor

    Failing to practice is practicing to fail.

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  18. #30

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
    You call them elitists. I call them the best of the best casters and casting instructors in the USA.
    All of this reminds me of when I used to teach skiing (which I did for many, many years.)

    We'd debate about the mechanics of World cup skiing, and how it was applicable to the person that had never been on skis a day in their life. When you start to break the movements apart, given that all skier can only move their skis in 3 (well 4 really) basic ways, you'd realize that due to the physics of the turn, it was impossible for the beginner to move the same way (regardless of the gap in ability level).

    How I feel this applies here, and to ANY movement based sport, is first one has to be able to make the most basic movements in the most basic way. Then they have to be able to repeat them, in the most basic way. Next, one has to be able to make the most basic movements, and be able to repeat them, with a minimum of mistakes. It is at this point, and really only this point, where one should start to think about the physics or mechanics of the cast (or whatever movement we're talking about). When one reaches a certain level of proficiency, it time to begin to deviate from the basic cast in order to match the conditions of the day. You all know, things like wind, heavy flies, small flies, light tippet, spooky fish, weird sun angles on the water, tricky cross currents, undercut banks, heavy vegetation and the list goes on and on. If a fisherperson only has one basic cast in their repertoire, then dealing with these situations will not be any fun, and they will not be successful. However, if they understand when to open their stroke, when to throw and aerial mend, how to tuck cast, or a reach cast or if they need a single haul (often) or double haul (rarely) then they will be way, way, way more successful in their fishing. It's why I said earlier (in sort of cryptic language) that I'd rather have 10 different ways to cast to 25' (and be accurate doing it), that one way to cast to 50' or 75'.

    It's my firm opinion, that more anglers need to work on more and different types of SHORT casts, than they spend on their distance casting. (But they need to understand the WHY's and When's of making both....)
    "Do yourself a favor. Take a kid fishing." - Franc White aka "The Southern Sportsman"

    "Maybe your stature as a fly fisherman isn't determined by how big a trout you can catch but how small a trout you can catch without being disappointed." - John Gierach

    "Many men go fishing all of their lives without knowing that it is not fish they are after." - Henry David Thoreau

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