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  1. #41

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Myt1- just saw that you are/were a dentist in Scottsdale. Too bad we didn't connect a year ago. I am in the industry and used to cover that territory. I'm Boulder based now- used to sell I/O scanners for a big St Paul company you may be familiar with...

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  2. #42

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by myt1 View Post
    Wow, you had quite the weekend.

    Thanks for the offer, it would've been fun...maybe next time.

    Right now I'm grappling with the two conflicting casting styles...Left Kreh verse hinging more or less from the elbow...and trying to decide which one I want to concentrate on.

    I'm pretty mediocre at both of the styles.

    It doesn't help that there are pretty convincing arguments in favor of both styles in this very thread.
    My argument is not that there is only one effective style. My point is that the elbow forward style is easier for a beginner to learn. After that, a caster can progress to a more open arm style whether it be elbow forward or low elbow.

    Another reason for starting with the elbow forward style is that it is the least likely to produce casting injuries. This has been documented in the publication of original research by Timothy J. McCue, MD; Clare E. Guse, MS; Rania L. Dempsey, MD, MS From the Curry Health Center, The University of Montana, Missoula, MT (Dr McCue); and the Department of Family and Community Medicine, Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, WI (Ms Guse and Dr Dempsey).

    https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S...04)70503-7/pdf

    Upper Extremity Pain Seen With Fly-Casting Technique: A Survey of Fly-Casting Instructors - ScienceDirect

    Note that this was a survey of fly casting INSTRUCTORS who should know how to cast and minimize casting injuries. Despite that, those instructors who used the low elbow sidearm techniques suffered more casting injuries than the overhead casters.

    öIn 292 usable surveys, pain was reported in the shoulder (50%), elbow (39%), and wrist (36%) of those surveyed and was characterized as moderate-to-severe by 25% of all respondents. Overhead casting was associated with less frequent wrist and elbow pain than was sidearm or elliptical casting."

    The link below presents the data in a more readable form with graphs that show the difference between the incidences of pain.

    http://www.working-well.org/articles/pdf/Fishing.pdf

    The graphs below show that the professional casting instructors that use the elbow forward overhead technique suffer less pain in the shoulder, elbow and wrist than those who use the low elbow sidearm casting technique.

    It is best that new fly casters begin with the elbow forward overhead cast which I believe is both easier to learn AND is less likely to cause injury.



    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  3. #43

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    LOL- A survey is not a study. Not using your wrist causes more pain than using your wrist? Anyone who calls Lefty's method "sidearm" does not understand it, and has not spent any time learning it. They are certainly not teaching it.

    I've been in the medical field, and involved in medical studies- REAL medical studies- for 30 years. I've worked with the FDA in product clearance. I have also helped casters eliminate pain in their casting by using more of their large muscle groups in their casting style. Give me a break~

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  4. Likes dynaflow, timd liked this post
  5. #44

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by dynaflow View Post
    Well that's presumptive on your part as you don't know me at all.I wouldn't put money on it,and I can't cast as well as a mentor of mine who's not only an elegant caster but an even better fisherman.Of course those two things can be mutually exclusive.
    Stop taking yourself so seriously darrrrling

  6. Likes dynaflow, Hirdy liked this post
  7. #45

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by osseous View Post
    LOL- A survey is not a study. Not using your wrist causes more pain than using your wrist? Anyone who calls Lefty's method "sidearm" does not understand it, and has not spent any time learning it. They are certainly not teaching it.
    To address your second point first:

    With all due respect, your views on whether Lefty Kreh's casting method is or is not a side arm technique are contrary to Al Kyte, who is is a founding member of the Board of Governors for the MCI exam of the IFFF.

    Al Kyte wrote this for the Study Guide for the MCI exam. It is also the lead article in the Fall of 2002 issue of "The Loop", The Federation of Fly Fishers Journal for Certified Casting Instructors.

    https://flyfishersinternational.org/....FALL.LOOP.PDF

    "Low Elbow

    In the low-elbow┬Łstyle, your elbow is kept low, down close to your body, and moved back and forth mostly from the shoulder
    . Even so, your hand comes up somewhat on the back cast to lift the line and downward on the forward cast enough to keep it from hitting your rod tip (Figure 3). When going for distance, most low-elbow casters open up their stance by dropping the casting side back. This combination of arm style and stance lends itself well to sidearm casting, long strokes, and saltwater fly fishing. The low arm and hand position provides additional strength to help you force a bend into stiff, heavy fly rods, the long arm movement helps control long lines in the wind, and the side-arm cast helps keep heavy rods low and big hooks away from your eyes. In trout-fishing schools, I most often select this style to provide a strong arm position for small or slightly built students, as well as to teach a side-arm cast.

    Lefty Kreh, Chico Fernandez (the saltwater expert from Florida), and Californian Jay Clark are excellent low- elbow casters."



    Lefty Kreh Teaching the Low Elbow cast.





    "Elbow Forward

    I start a beginning class with what I call the elbow-forward style. At the start of the forward cast, your elbow is directly below your hand, which is at ear level and slightly forward of your casting shoulder (Figure 1). This arm and hand position is similar to that seen just prior to releasing a dart or baseball. Positioning your elbow forward of your shoulder invites a forceful use of the forearm through elbow extension to help generate speed.

    It is part of an overhand baseball throw, which is called a kinetic whip because each body part moves in a whiplike sequence, adding to the overall force. This upright forearm is also important to accuracy by leading and thus controlling the vertical forward movement of your fly rod and unrolling fly line. I believe this is why most tournament casters use an elbow-forward style.

    Most elbow-forward casters also use this vertical plane, offset slightly, for the back cast to simplify the fly line┬’s path as it changes direction from backward to forward. The arm-lifting motion of this back cast is called shoulder flexion. Lowering the elbow on the forward cast is shoulder extension. This is the arm style of people who have most influenced casting in California, including Jimmy Green, Mel Krieger and Steve and Tim Rajeff. They personify a long-standing link between our interests in tournament fly casting and trout and steelhead fly fishing.

    The elbow-forward style also characterizes the casts of other notables, such as Joan Wulff, Jerry Siem, and Gary Borger."



    Joan Wullf teaching the Elbow Forward cast.





    As to your first point:

    Definition - A survey is an investigation about the characteristics of a given population by means of collecting data from a sample of that population and estimating their characteristics through the systematic use of statistical methodology.

    https://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=2620

    "PARTICIPANTS

    Participants were randomly selected from 812 individuals living in the United States who have completed the
    rigorous Federation of Fly Fishers (FFF) Casting Instructor Certification Program. This group of professional fly-casting instructors represents a cross section o fpeople who typically cast fly rods during more than 50% of the year. Fly-casting instructors certified by the FFF 268 McCue, Guse, and Dempsey demonstrate a high proficiency in fly-casting techniques for multiple scenarios including distance, obstacles, and accuracy. Approval for this work was obtained from the Institutional Review Board of the Medical College of
    Wisconsin. Completion and return of surveys was deemed to indicate consent by participants; therefore, the requirement for written informed consent was waived by the review committee."

    Finally, what I have not seen in your post is any relevant publications by experts in the field of fly casting as to whether one method or the other is easier to learn, to teach, or produces less casting pain. If anyone should LOL, it should be at the lack of any supporting evidence of any kind.
    Last edited by silver creek; 03-15-2019 at 09:38 AM.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  8. #46

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    I taught with Lefty- multiple times, over 10 years. Never heard him call his method "side arm" casting. Not one time. He talked about his 4 rules. He taught people to apply them however the conditions dictated, actually. Not being shoehorned into ONE method or angle is one of his rules, in fact: "with the tip going in the direction you need the line to go". Rule number three- He demonstrated that the rod angle really didn't matter. He didn't believe in charts, graphs, over-complication... or sucking all the FUN out of things. He was fundamentally opposed to that.

    And with that, I'm going fishing- all day, with whatever rod necessary, and zero pain. I might even bring a woman or a kid~ maybe one of the 10s of thousands Lefty taught- happily casting with a relaxed, long lever stroke- that anybody can learn to do.

    You can declare victory- cause you had fly casting...charts.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  9. Likes trout trekker, dynaflow, Lonnie Utah liked this post
  10. #47

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by osseous View Post
    I taught with Lefty- multiple times, over 10 years. Never heard him call his method "side arm" casting. Not one time. He talked about his 4 rules. He taught people to apply them however the conditions dictated, actually. Not being shoehorned into ONE method or angle is one of his rules, in fact: "with the tip going in the direction you need the line to go". Rule number three- He demonstrated that the rod angle really didn't matter. He didn't believe in charts, graphs, over-complication... or sucking all the FUN out of things. He was fundamentally opposed to that.

    And with that, I'm going fishing- all day, with whatever rod necessary, and zero pain. I might even bring a woman or a kid~ maybe one of the 10s of thousands Lefty taught- happily casting with a relaxed, long lever stroke- that anybody can learn to do.

    You can declare victory- cause you had fly casting...charts.
    It's not about victory or charts as any casting instructor should know.

    Most instructors teach the elbow forward cast for several reasons.

    The first is that it is an easily taught cast.

    The second is that the elbow forward cast is highly accurate.

    However, the third reason is MOST important. The elbow forward cast is symmetrical. What I mean by that is that because the cast is OVERHEAD, the caster can make IN THE AIR MENDS to either side of the cast with equal efficiency. The most often used mend in fishing moving water is the reach mend. Try to find a teaching video in which a reach mend is made with a low elbow Lefty Kreh type of fly cast. There isn't one. The reason is that the cast is lower to the water and is off to the side of the casting arm. It is a lousy cast for making in the air mends.

    All in the air mends are more easily made with a elbow forward cast. The parachute mend/cast, the puddle cast/mend, the wiggle or S mend, the right/left or left/right curve mend, etc, etc. All are based off of the overhead elbow forward cast.

    Then there are specialty trout fishing casts like the tuck cast for nymphing, or the right or left curve casts. These are also based on the overhead elbow forward cast. I've never seen or heard of an instructor teaching a tuck cast or an off side curve cast using a low elbow cast.

    But the low elbow cast is great for casting in windy conditions and in situations where there is no need to make mends. That is why Lefty Kreh, who was primarily a saltwater fisher, prefers and teaches the low elbow cast. It is the bread and butter of saltwater fly fishing. But it is not a very good cast for moving water or for casting in when the backcast must clear brush or high grass on a river bank, or for the fly fisher who is at the rear of a float boat.

    If someone is mainly going to fish in saltwater flats or from a salt water skiff, the low elbow cast should be the cast that angler learns. It is the preferred cast for salt water.

    For someone who is going to fish deep wading in lakes or in rivers where distance casting and mending and manipulating the cast depends on keeping the cast higher off the water, then the overhead elbow forward cast should be the first cast they learn. Since most fly fishing and casting schools are basically freshwater schools, the elbow forward method is the preferred method as demonstrated by the number of professionals that teach the method.

    These mending techniques are are not needed for salt water low elbow casts but are required for fishing rivers and streams. Every one of these mends begins with a elbow forward overhead cast.











    The important point is not whether an instructor can teach or a student can learn a specific casting stroke. The important point is whether the casting stroke that the instructor teaches is the best casting method for the type of fishing that the student is going to do most or all of the time.
    Last edited by silver creek; 03-15-2019 at 02:15 PM.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  12. Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Whether you cast Lefty style, Korich/Borger or whomever you want to insert, the fundamentals are the same. Straight rod tip path, eliminate slack, apply power in appropriate amounts and in the appropriate place, adjust your casting arc in proportion to the length of line out the rod tip and pause is also proportionate to length of line cast (Gammel's 5 essentials). Pick the casting style you prefer and practice it til you are comfortable with it.

  13. #49
    Join Date
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    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by osseous View Post
    Myt1- just saw that you are/were a dentist in Scottsdale. Too bad we didn't connect a year ago. I am in the industry and used to cover that territory. I'm Boulder based now- used to sell I/O scanners for a big St Paul company you may be familiar with...

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk
    Yes, I retired almost three years ago.

    If I would've practiced a few more years I would've seriously considered an intra-oral scanner. They seem like the future.

    I heard Boulder is great.
    -Rick Allen

  14. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    1,097

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by silver creek View Post

    But the low elbow cast is great for casting in windy conditions and in situations where there is no need to make mends. That is why Lefty Kreh, who was primarily a saltwater fisher, prefers and teaches the low elbow cast. It is the bread and butter of saltwater fly fishing. But it is not a very good cast for moving water or for casting in when the backcast must clear brush or high grass on a river bank, or for the fly fisher who is at the rear of a float boat.

    If someone is mainly going to fish in saltwater flats or from a salt water skiff, the low elbow cast should be the cast that angler learns. It is the preferred cast for salt water.

    For someone who is going to fish deep wading in lakes or in rivers where distance casting and mending and manipulating the cast depends on keeping the cast higher off the water, then the overhead elbow forward cast should be the first cast they learn. Since most fly fishing and casting schools are basically freshwater schools, the elbow forward method is the preferred method as demonstrated by the number of professionals that teach the method.

    These mending techniques are are not needed for salt water low elbow casts but are required for fishing rivers and streams. Every one of these mends begins with a elbow forward overhead cast.

    [/i]
    I'm going with the above statements.

    Basically, I need to learn both methods.

    I was fishing a couple of days ago and whenever the wind came up I had better casting success when I dropped my arm to the side a bit.

    Also, even though I have very limited experience fishing salt water, another reason to fish side armed from a flats boat is so you don't hook other people it in the boat with your back cast.

    Just as an aside, have buddies look at your stroke and give you constructive criticism.

    When I was fishing the other day with buddies none of us were doing any catching. The water was the color of chocolate milk. The run-off has already started in Arizona.

    So basically we turned our day into a casting lesson.

    My buddy who is a very good caster pointed out to me that when I finished my cast the side of my reel was parallel to the ground rather than vertical.

    Apparently, when I snapped my wrist at the end of my cast I was hideously and completely unconsciously rotating my wrist at the same time. I had no idea I was even doing it.

    Immediately after correcting this my casts went straighter without a left hand bend at the end.

    Who knew.
    -Rick Allen

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