Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

[myt1]

At some point I will probably get a lesson.

In the meantime I'm watching a ton of videos, reading several books...over and over... and I'm just enjoying the challenge of trying to figure this stuff out for myself.

So here is my question.

If I were to measure the distance from my wrist to the ground at the end of my backstroke and the end of my forward stroke would the distance be the same, would it be greater at the end of the backstroke, or vice versa?

I always kinda thought it should be the same distance, but lately I've been re-watching some videos and it appears the wrist is lower at the end of the forward stroke.

When I watched a video of an extreme distance caster his wrist was way higher at the end of the forward stroke.

Basically, I'm trying to make about a 45 foot cast using the double haul, with a 9 foot, 5 wt rod. I practice in the street in front of my house with a small piece of yarn and a hook shank with the hook bend removed, if that makes a difference.

Thanks so much.

 

[Ard]

Hi Rick,

I'll try not to ramble and I hope you might see some sense in what I'll write to you. I don't enter into these casting discussions often because there are many members here much more refined and experienced than myself. With that said.....

I can only tell you what I think I know. I think that with the infusion of video and rod / line marketing many people who have not been doing this for a long time begin to question themselves. In today's world things like fly casting are under a proverbial microscope with every tiny nuance scrutinized for perfection. If we had available good clear slow motion video of me casting I am sure that experts would point out a hoard of flaws. Curiously though I am able to place a line and subsequently a fly wherever I want them to land from short range casts all the way out to 100 feet away when using a 2 hand rod.

On the forward stroke (presentation stroke) with a single hand fly rod I stop the rod wherever my instinct (based on experience) tells me the stop must be made. I then allow the rod & hand / arm to drift to wherever I am most comfortable after I can see that all is well with the cast. Situations vary throughout a day as I may move from one type and range of presentation to another and so, the casting changes to meet each new requirement faced. Back casts are different the stop on the back stroke should always be happening where you know (by feel) that it must. Most importantly in this is that this is happening behind you and we are not usually watching the back cast. You can turn the head for a peak but I've never seen anyone do that every single cast. You look when you first are learning, you imprint the feel and then you keep it the same way until your situation changes. By changes I am talking about when you go from short range casts to long range that requires the double haul technique. That will change the stop point of a back cast somewhat.....

I don't subscribe to the idea that there is one way to hold a fly rod or one way to cast. I very seldom speak in terms of years or the amount of time / experience I have had at fishing but will tell you here that those things encompass 50 years. In the years from 1979 until the present I have fine tuned the casting so that I can do what I need to do when fishing. Prior to 79' I was what I'd call an apprentice who had rough edges. You can pursue any means available to improve your casting, videos, books, lessons, there are many resources available today but there is no substitute for time on the creeks and rivers alone. Out there fishing, relaxed, focused and casting your flies, that is I believe, the road or path to knowing.

I'm not saying that I never picked up any guidance by watching people who were obviously good at casting. Those things though were fine tuning items that I recognized when I sat and watched someone fish. What I didn't do was to convince myself that I had been doing everything wrong up to that point in time. I took what I saw for what it was, something I could attempt to try, to synthesize into my own techniques. I will also tell you that I put almost zero value on street or lawn casting, I learned on water and believe it is the best medium for learning...

 

[osseous]

I recommend that you pick up a copy of one of Lefty Kreh's books or videos on casting...or his favorite casting instructor, Ed Jaworowski. Both men will describe what must happen during every cast in a way that makes sense. It will save you a ton of time and hassle. There are a ton of other resources out there- it is confusing as hell. It need not be.

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[dillon]

I haven't taken the time to read the replies, but all I know is the more you drop your hand/ wrist on the forward stroke the more the rod tip will drop and the loop of your fly line will widen. We strive for tight loops for distance and presentation.

 

[dynaflow]

Your casting stroke should generally follow a straight path,and a common mistake is to drop the wrist at the end of the back stroke.The final action of the forward cast (i.e.the stop) is the short action of dropping the wrist...similar to that of hammering a nail into an imaginary wall.Try the entire casting stroke with the dropped wrist action at the end without a rod and you'll get it.This becomes muscle memory,and any casting practise is productive,even if it's in your backyard.

 

[boisker]

To be fair Ard... I am sure you are both an excellent fisher, caster with both single and double... and as you have said you’ve 50yrs experience.
But not everyone wants to develop over such a long period or necessarily has enough time to devote to just ‘learning’ on the water.

.... and let’s not even mention.... 1979!! That’s not pre-internet that’s pretty much the dawn of VHS... I knew people in the U.K. who still just had a black and white TV! you just didn’t have the multitude of channels of advice at your disposal in 1979... the trick is to learn which ones are useful and know their stuff.

But to answer the question... I cant as it depends on a whole host of things, particularly how you cast, length of stroke, speed of stroke...
if you’re a Lefty disciple then the difference in height will be far less then if your casting stroke is more like Jason’s Borgers foundation stroke or Korich.... basically there’s no straight forward answer

Lefty..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tSUz8HdJSIM
Jason B...
Jason Borger's Foundation Casting Stroke on Vimeo
Korich...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QfKpOJQDu9I

 

[silver creek]

If I were to measure the distance from my wrist to the ground at the end of my backstroke and the end of my forward stroke would the distance be the same, would it be greater at the end of the backstroke, or vice versa?

I always kinda thought it should be the same distance, but lately I've been re-watching some videos and it appears the wrist is lower at the end of the forward stroke.

When I watched a video of an extreme distance caster his wrist was way higher at the end of the forward stroke.

Basically, I'm trying to make about a 45 foot cast using the double haul, with a 9 foot, 5 wt rod. I practice in the street in front of my house with a small piece of yarn and a hook shank with the hook bend removed, if that makes a difference.

Thanks so much.

I haven't taken the time to read the replies, but all I know is the more you drop your hand/ wrist on the forward stroke the more the rod tip will drop and the loop of your fly line will widen. We strive for tight loops for distance and presentation.

Your casting stroke should generally follow a straight path,and a common mistake is to drop the wrist at the end of the back stroke.The final action of the forward cast (i.e.the stop) is the short action of dropping the wrist...similar to that of hammering a nail into an imaginary wall.Try the entire casting stroke with the dropped wrist action at the end without a rod and you'll get it.This becomes muscle memory,and any casting practise is productive,even if it's in your backyard.

In reply to dynaflow, I think you mean the rod tip follows a straight path and not the casting stroke. The casting stroke must compensate for the bending and shortening of the rod (more on this below).

In reply to the all above posts, there is a common error and that is to assume that the relative position of the casting hand and or wrist relative to the ground at the start of the cast and end of the cast is always going to be the same at all casting distances AND with all casting styes.

It is human nature to assume that everyone casts a fly rod just like we individually cast a fly rod. That is simple not true.

In fact there are 3 main casting styles as noted by Al Kyte in his articles for the FFF and another article with Gary Moran. They are linked below. We will just discuss the two most common styles:

The Low Elbow style of Lefty Kreh and the the elbow forward style of the Rajeff brothers, the Borgers, Jerry Seim, Joan Wulff, and Steve Korich


Casting Styles

https://flyfishersinternational.org...ubstance and Style.Al Kyte and Gary Moran.pdf

Using the low elbow form of Lefty Kreh when he casts long, the hand is about the same distance above the ground. When he casts short, the casting hand is closer to the ground.

For the elbow forward style, the casing hand is lower at the end of the cast on both short and long casts, but relatively low on the shorter casts.

Fly casting is DYNAMIC and relative hand position and the casting stroke changes for distance and delicacy and accuracy. There is no fixed relative position of the casting hand to the ground and in fact there is no identical shape to the stroke path.

Here is the physical reality of fly casting. We are pulling a string with a FLEXIBLE lever through time and space. The fly rod is flexible and therefore BENDS during the casting stroke. Because the rod bends, the CHORD (distance from the rod tip to the casting hand) of the rod CONTRACTS and brings the ROD TIP CLOSER to the CASTING HAND. The fly rod SHRINKS!!!!! The CASTING STROKE must COMPENSATE for this shrinking rod by both TILTING the fly rod and ADJUSTING the stroke PATH so the ROD TIP follows a SLP (straight line path). Now add the variable of accuracy and casting distance.

Here are some illustrations of the rod stroke paths depending on the casting style and casting distance.

Illustration of hand positions of the elbow forward style for short casts from Jason Borger’s book.

Stop Motion of my friend Nelson Ishiyama using the Elbow Forward Cast

Long Cast Elbow Forward Style

Slow Motion of Kris Korich elbow forward style. Because his compact rod stroke uses the bending of the elbow joint and wrist joint,and the rotation of the humerus at the shoulder joint, the rod stroke forms a CONVEX ARC to compensate for the shortening of the fly rod chord.

Kris Korich

Steve Rajeff distance casting competition - high hand position on the final casting stroke

YouTube

 

[rodneyshishido]

Problem I have is that I read all these books and watch the videos, so my brain know what I should be doing. I practice there seems to be some disconnect or communication problem between my brain and body. LOL

Don't overthink the casting. Get chest waders and sneak closer to the fish.

Don't forget to have a good time!

 

[dynaflow]

We think we must also consider the physical differences between casters as IMHO that affects technigue.I'm only 70kg.(154lbs.)and use my whole body when hauling and casting....and I always double haul.Someone who's 6'4" and built doesn't need to do this.

 

[Hirdy]

At some point I will probably get a lesson.

....

If I were to measure the distance from my wrist to the ground at the end of my backstroke and the end of my forward stroke would the distance be the same, would it be greater at the end of the backstroke, or vice versa?

I always kinda thought it should be the same distance, but lately I've been re-watching some videos and it appears the wrist is lower at the end of the forward stroke.

When I watched a video of an extreme distance caster his wrist was way higher at the end of the forward stroke.

Hi Rick,

There are too many answers for me to discuss. I'll just try to answer your first post in this thread.

You should get that lesson sooner rather than later. It will save you going through a whole bunch of contradictory and confusing responses to your questions (including mine ... )

Comparing the hand motions of a distance cast where the caster is aiming for 120' with those of a "fishing cast" to 45' will show you that when you throw an object further, you need to aim upwards to counteract gravity. That should not be a surprise, but it really is as simple as that.

Cheers,
Graeme

 

[osseous]

Yeah... the reason I recommended Lefty wayyy up there?^^^ Simple, consistent message- that works. Just 4 rules to learn and apply:

Get the whole line moving (slowly).

Accelerate to a hard stop.

With the rod tip going in the direction you want the line to go.

Making a longer stroke for challenging situations (wind, distance, heavy flies or tackle etc- anytime you are struggling)


All the others are undoubtedly great casters- but they employ athleticism, superior timing, size, strength, all of the above?- What Lefty did was make great casting accessible to everyone. His method is transformative in its simplicity. I've taught it for 25 years. Give it a try- it will quickly provide you with a fundamental understanding. From there, you'll be able to do any other method you choose- because you will know what a fly rod requires of you.

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[dynaflow]

Well said Graeme,that's where guys like you come in...and specialist rods and lines help with distance casting .Forget that and learn to be reasonably accurate up to fifty feet.

 

[boisker]

The rules are the same whatever style you cast... Lefty just casts in a different plane.

 

[osseous]

The rules are the same whatever style you cast... Lefty just casts in a different plane.

And that plane makes it easier for those without the strength and timing of an athlete to perform, by lengthening the stroke.

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[Lonnie Utah]

We strive for tight loops for distance and presentation.

In all reality, it depends on the presentation your actually trying to make....

Edit: A truly accomplished fly caster will be able to throw a variety of loop sizes at will. This is dependent on how they are rigged/what they are fishing with, the distance they are trying to cast and how they want their flies to land on the water. Sometimes I want my flies to land like a snowflake on a windless winter day, sometimes I want them to hit with a "splat!" and sometimes it doesn't matter.

 

[Lonnie Utah]

forget that and learn to be reasonably accurate up to twenty five feet.

fify......

 

[myt1]

To be fair Ard... I am sure you are both an excellent fisher, caster with both single and double... and as you have said you’ve 50yrs experience.
But not everyone wants to develop over such a long period or necessarily has enough time to devote to just ‘learning’ on the water.

.... and let’s not even mention.... 1979!! That’s not pre-internet that’s pretty much the dawn of VHS... I knew people in the U.K. who still just had a black and white TV! you just didn’t have the multitude of channels of advice at your disposal in 1979... the trick is to learn which ones are useful and know their stuff.

But to answer the question... I cant as it depends on a whole host of things, particularly how you cast, length of stroke, speed of stroke...
if you’re a Lefty disciple then the difference in height will be far less then if your casting stroke is more like Jason’s Borgers foundation stroke or Korich.... basically there’s no straight forward answer

Lefty..
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tSUz8HdJSIM
Jason B...
Jason Borger's Foundation Casting Stroke on Vimeo
Korich...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QfKpOJQDu9I

Thank you for the videos.

I have watched several of them previously, and sadly they are largely responsible for some of my confusion.

Lefty starts his video talking about a "salute cast" where his hand starts high and ends low. He says this is how not to do it.

Yet Fly Casting Jedi and Jason Borger, both extremely expert casters, use a stroke that looks very similar to the "salute cast", the one Lefty says isn't so good.

So there must be something else going on. Apparently, I was mistakenly focusing on the position of the wrist through out the cast as a key measure of a successful casting stroke, and that seems to be wrong, seeing how the above expert casters move their wrists in different fashions.

 

[rodneyshishido]

When I first "learned" to fly cast, it was explained to me in very simple terms. There are two basic motions in fly casting. A forward movement with the wrist locked will accelerate the line. Keep the rod vertical and moving the rod butt parallel to the ground. You should be able to produce a nice tight loop. Watch you backcast, so you don't start your forward cast too soon. Movement of the wrist controls the loop. This is fundamental strokes on which I built my casting.

 

[boisker]

Thank you for the videos.

I have watched several of them previously, and sadly they are largely responsible for some of my confusion.

Lefty starts his video talking about a "salute cast" where his hand starts high and ends low. He says this is how not to do it.

Yet Fly Casting Jedi and Jason Borger, both extremely expert casters, use a stroke that looks very similar to the "salute cast", the one Lefty says isn't so good.

So there must be something else going on. Apparently, I was mistakenly focusing on the position of the wrist through out the cast as a key measure of a successful casting stroke, and that seems to be wrong, seeing how the above expert casters move their wrists in different fashions.

Lefty had a partic style that he developed and fully believed was the best I guess... there are definitely other views

I found some of Lefty’s explanations useful when I first started casting, partic “sliding the elbow along a shelf” (or something like that, it’s a while since I watched one of his explanations). But personally I think “Borgers” closed stance style is better, it more naturally provides a base from which to develop a range of presentation casts... no doubt others will disagree

Fundamentally they are the same though, if lefty is casting along a horizontal plank then the other two are the same the planks just more vertical...

I don’t really get why Lefty talks about having to use the body to someone learning to cast routine distances... out to 60’ in either style is just technique and requires no effort, good timing will scoot it out there.

There’s a vid out somewhere on the net with Korich teaching the basic pull stroke... he explains how the cast comes through the shoulder, elbow and wrist... the shoulder, then elbow has the most strength but it’s the wrist that provides the speed.... which explains why 60’ casts are made with such a short stroke and so little effort.... (that’s explained poorly... not surprisingly Korich does a better job of it)

I’ll post the vid if I can find it...

 

[osseous]

What makes work easier- a longer lever or a shorter lever?...

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