Thanks Thanks:  4
Likes Likes:  41
Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 52
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Scottsdale, AZ
    Posts
    1,147

    Default Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    At some point I will probably get a lesson.

    In the meantime I'm watching a ton of videos, reading several books...over and over... and I'm just enjoying the challenge of trying to figure this stuff out for myself.

    So here is my question.

    If I were to measure the distance from my wrist to the ground at the end of my backstroke and the end of my forward stroke would the distance be the same, would it be greater at the end of the backstroke, or vice versa?

    I always kinda thought it should be the same distance, but lately I've been re-watching some videos and it appears the wrist is lower at the end of the forward stroke.

    When I watched a video of an extreme distance caster his wrist was way higher at the end of the forward stroke.

    Basically, I'm trying to make about a 45 foot cast using the double haul, with a 9 foot, 5 wt rod. I practice in the street in front of my house with a small piece of yarn and a hook shank with the hook bend removed, if that makes a difference.

    Thanks so much.
    -Rick Allen

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Wasilla / Skwentna, Alaska
    Posts
    17,529
    Blog Entries
    136

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Hi Rick,

    I'll try not to ramble and I hope you might see some sense in what I'll write to you. I don't enter into these casting discussions often because there are many members here much more refined and experienced than myself. With that said.....

    I can only tell you what I think I know. I think that with the infusion of video and rod / line marketing many people who have not been doing this for a long time begin to question themselves. In today's world things like fly casting are under a proverbial microscope with every tiny nuance scrutinized for perfection. If we had available good clear slow motion video of me casting I am sure that experts would point out a hoard of flaws. Curiously though I am able to place a line and subsequently a fly wherever I want them to land from short range casts all the way out to 100 feet away when using a 2 hand rod.

    On the forward stroke (presentation stroke) with a single hand fly rod I stop the rod wherever my instinct (based on experience) tells me the stop must be made. I then allow the rod & hand / arm to drift to wherever I am most comfortable after I can see that all is well with the cast. Situations vary throughout a day as I may move from one type and range of presentation to another and so, the casting changes to meet each new requirement faced. Back casts are different the stop on the back stroke should always be happening where you know (by feel) that it must. Most importantly in this is that this is happening behind you and we are not usually watching the back cast. You can turn the head for a peak but I've never seen anyone do that every single cast. You look when you first are learning, you imprint the feel and then you keep it the same way until your situation changes. By changes I am talking about when you go from short range casts to long range that requires the double haul technique. That will change the stop point of a back cast somewhat.....

    I don't subscribe to the idea that there is one way to hold a fly rod or one way to cast. I very seldom speak in terms of years or the amount of time / experience I have had at fishing but will tell you here that those things encompass 50 years. In the years from 1979 until the present I have fine tuned the casting so that I can do what I need to do when fishing. Prior to 79' I was what I'd call an apprentice who had rough edges. You can pursue any means available to improve your casting, videos, books, lessons, there are many resources available today but there is no substitute for time on the creeks and rivers alone. Out there fishing, relaxed, focused and casting your flies, that is I believe, the road or path to knowing.

    I'm not saying that I never picked up any guidance by watching people who were obviously good at casting. Those things though were fine tuning items that I recognized when I sat and watched someone fish. What I didn't do was to convince myself that I had been doing everything wrong up to that point in time. I took what I saw for what it was, something I could attempt to try, to synthesize into my own techniques. I will also tell you that I put almost zero value on street or lawn casting, I learned on water and believe it is the best medium for learning...

    Anywhere can be the land of great expectations, broken dreams, or paradise found, it's all up to you.

    Life On The Line - Alaska Fishing with Ard
    Ard's Forum blog, Alaska Outdoors

  3. Likes myt1, City Rat liked this post
  4. #3

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    I recommend that you pick up a copy of one of Lefty Kreh's books or videos on casting...or his favorite casting instructor, Ed Jaworowski. Both men will describe what must happen during every cast in a way that makes sense. It will save you a ton of time and hassle. There are a ton of other resources out there- it is confusing as hell. It need not be.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

  5. Likes myt1, Lonnie Utah liked this post
  6. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Portland and Maupin, Oregon
    Posts
    1,326

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    I haven't taken the time to read the replies, but all I know is the more you drop your hand/ wrist on the forward stroke the more the rod tip will drop and the loop of your fly line will widen. We strive for tight loops for distance and presentation.

  7. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Byron Bay...easternmost point of Australia
    Posts
    457

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Your casting stroke should generally follow a straight path,and a common mistake is to drop the wrist at the end of the back stroke.The final action of the forward cast (i.e.the stop) is the short action of dropping the wrist...similar to that of hammering a nail into an imaginary wall.Try the entire casting stroke with the dropped wrist action at the end without a rod and you'll get it.This becomes muscle memory,and any casting practise is productive,even if it's in your backyard.

  8. #6

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    To be fair Ard... I am sure you are both an excellent fisher, caster with both single and double... and as you have said you’ve 50yrs experience.
    But not everyone wants to develop over such a long period or necessarily has enough time to devote to just ‘learning’ on the water.

    .... and let’s not even mention.... 1979!! That’s not pre-internet that’s pretty much the dawn of VHS... I knew people in the U.K. who still just had a black and white TV! you just didn’t have the multitude of channels of advice at your disposal in 1979... the trick is to learn which ones are useful and know their stuff.

    But to answer the question... I cant as it depends on a whole host of things, particularly how you cast, length of stroke, speed of stroke...
    if you’re a Lefty disciple then the difference in height will be far less then if your casting stroke is more like Jason’s Borgers foundation stroke or Korich.... basically there’s no straight forward answer

    Lefty..

    Jason B...

    Korich...

  9. Likes rangerrich99 liked this post
  10. #7

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Quote Originally Posted by myt1 View Post

    If I were to measure the distance from my wrist to the ground at the end of my backstroke and the end of my forward stroke would the distance be the same, would it be greater at the end of the backstroke, or vice versa?

    I always kinda thought it should be the same distance, but lately I've been re-watching some videos and it appears the wrist is lower at the end of the forward stroke.

    When I watched a video of an extreme distance caster his wrist was way higher at the end of the forward stroke.

    Basically, I'm trying to make about a 45 foot cast using the double haul, with a 9 foot, 5 wt rod. I practice in the street in front of my house with a small piece of yarn and a hook shank with the hook bend removed, if that makes a difference.

    Thanks so much.
    Quote Originally Posted by dillon View Post
    I haven't taken the time to read the replies, but all I know is the more you drop your hand/ wrist on the forward stroke the more the rod tip will drop and the loop of your fly line will widen. We strive for tight loops for distance and presentation.
    Quote Originally Posted by dynaflow View Post
    Your casting stroke should generally follow a straight path,and a common mistake is to drop the wrist at the end of the back stroke.The final action of the forward cast (i.e.the stop) is the short action of dropping the wrist...similar to that of hammering a nail into an imaginary wall.Try the entire casting stroke with the dropped wrist action at the end without a rod and you'll get it.This becomes muscle memory,and any casting practise is productive,even if it's in your backyard.
    In reply to dynaflow, I think you mean the rod tip follows a straight path and not the casting stroke. The casting stroke must compensate for the bending and shortening of the rod (more on this below).

    In reply to the all above posts, there is a common error and that is to assume that the relative position of the casting hand and or wrist relative to the ground at the start of the cast and end of the cast is always going to be the same at all casting distances AND with all casting styes.

    It is human nature to assume that everyone casts a fly rod just like we individually cast a fly rod. That is simple not true.

    In fact there are 3 main casting styles as noted by Al Kyte in his articles for the FFF and another article with Gary Moran. They are linked below. We will just discuss the two most common styles:

    The Low Elbow style of Lefty Kreh and the the elbow forward style of the Rajeff brothers, the Borgers, Jerry Seim, Joan Wulff, and Steve Korich


    Casting Styles


    https://flyfishersinternational.org/...ry%20Moran.pdf

    Using the low elbow form of Lefty Kreh when he casts long, the hand is about the same distance above the ground. When he casts short, the casting hand is closer to the ground.

    For the elbow forward style, the casing hand is lower at the end of the cast on both short and long casts, but relatively low on the shorter casts.

    Fly casting is DYNAMIC and relative hand position and the casting stroke changes for distance and delicacy and accuracy. There is no fixed relative position of the casting hand to the ground and in fact there is no identical shape to the stroke path.

    Here is the physical reality of fly casting. We are pulling a string with a FLEXIBLE lever through time and space. The fly rod is flexible and therefore BENDS during the casting stroke. Because the rod bends, the CHORD (distance from the rod tip to the casting hand) of the rod CONTRACTS and brings the ROD TIP CLOSER to the CASTING HAND. The fly rod SHRINKS!!!!! The CASTING STROKE must COMPENSATE for this shrinking rod by both TILTING the fly rod and ADJUSTING the stroke PATH so the ROD TIP follows a SLP (straight line path). Now add the variable of accuracy and casting distance.

    Here are some illustrations of the rod stroke paths depending on the casting style and casting distance.




    Illustration of hand positions of the elbow forward style for short casts from Jason Borger’s book.



    Stop Motion of my friend Nelson Ishiyama using the Elbow Forward Cast



    Long Cast Elbow Forward Style



    Slow Motion of Kris Korich elbow forward style. Because his compact rod stroke uses the bending of the elbow joint and wrist joint,and the rotation of the humerus at the shoulder joint, the rod stroke forms a CONVEX ARC to compensate for the shortening of the fly rod chord.



    Steve Rajeff distance casting competition - high hand position on the final casting stroke

    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

  11. Thanks City Rat thanked for this post
    Likes dennyk liked this post
  12. #8

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    Problem I have is that I read all these books and watch the videos, so my brain know what I should be doing. I practice there seems to be some disconnect or communication problem between my brain and body. LOL

    Don't overthink the casting. Get chest waders and sneak closer to the fish.

    Don't forget to have a good time!

  13. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Byron Bay...easternmost point of Australia
    Posts
    457

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    We think we must also consider the physical differences between casters as IMHO that affects technigue.I'm only 70kg.(154lbs.)and use my whole body when hauling and casting....and I always double haul.Someone who's 6'4" and built doesn't need to do this.

  14. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    511
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default Re: Hand position at end of backstroke and front stroke?

    At some point I will probably get a lesson.

    ....

    If I were to measure the distance from my wrist to the ground at the end of my backstroke and the end of my forward stroke would the distance be the same, would it be greater at the end of the backstroke, or vice versa?

    I always kinda thought it should be the same distance, but lately I've been re-watching some videos and it appears the wrist is lower at the end of the forward stroke.

    When I watched a video of an extreme distance caster his wrist was way higher at the end of the forward stroke.

    Hi Rick,

    There are too many answers for me to discuss. I'll just try to answer your first post in this thread.

    You should get that lesson sooner rather than later. It will save you going through a whole bunch of contradictory and confusing responses to your questions (including mine ... )

    Comparing the hand motions of a distance cast where the caster is aiming for 120' with those of a "fishing cast" to 45' will show you that when you throw an object further, you need to aim upwards to counteract gravity. That should not be a surprise, but it really is as simple as that.

    Cheers,
    Graeme
    FFi Certified Casting Instructor

    Failing to practice is practicing to fail.

Page 1 of 6 123 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-28-2019, 06:20 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-28-2019, 05:30 AM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-05-2017, 08:30 PM
  4. tying position
    By flytire in forum General Fly Tying Discussions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 08-23-2016, 04:02 PM
  5. Foot position?
    By Tracker12 in forum The Fly Cast
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: 06-16-2010, 08:59 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •