Casting Double Nymph Rigs...

[ThrowingFlies]

Hey all,

So i'm finally at a point where I feel good about my cast. I'm definitely no expert but after not fishing for 3 years when I lived in LA, I'm back to a point where I feel comfortable dropping a fly on a dinner plate sized area at up to 40'. But thats using a dry fly or maybe a dry dropper. Back when I lived in Colorado I was somewhat of a 'purist'. A dropper was as deep as I went. Never nymphed up until probably these last 6 months. Honestly I dont know what I was so adverse to it. If theyre not taking dries I still want to catch fish!

But my casting when I nymph is atrocious. I usually fish with 2 flies and an indicator on a 9' 5 weight. And honestly i'm actually okay as long as I have 1) room to cast and 2) i'm not fishing deeper than 4feet. Beyond that point its...bad. I have to strip in a ton of line anytime I want to cast and then false cast a few times to get it all back out. And even then that can be hard depending on the weight (if i've added split) and the depth im fishing at.

I can honestly say I dont know how people roll cast when their flies are under more than 3 feet of water. Now if i'm fishing a fast river I can just let it drift by and 'flick' it back out once there is tension behind me. But even then - when i'm fishing deeper than 4 feet I find it much harder to do. Forget about when we go nymphing on a lake in still waters with 10+ feet of tippet.

Right now i'm hopeless and was hoping you guys could provide a few suggestions.


Thanks!

 

[silver creek]

Water loaded tension cast.

Nymph fishing and its frustrations

Belgian Cast for heavy streamers and nymphing rigs.

https://www.theflyfishingforum.com/...reamer-can-i-cast-3.html?posted=1#post1098921


7 Tips for Casting Heavy, Awkward Nymph Rigs - Guide Recommended

 

[mike_r]

Have you tried a New Zealand style indicator system? Not the best for big stonefly nymphs but good for size 12 bead heads and smaller. I would try that first as the indicator has no more wind resistance than a dry fly. I fish a twelve foot leader to the yarn typically with up to 5 feet of lighter than 3X tippet after that. You still may get a funky kick if you try to punch cast the rig with too tight a loop. Slow the cast down just enough to open up your loop and you should be fine within typical fishing distances. I fish a rig like this out to 70’ with a 9’ 5 wt Sage XP; a fast, stiff rod with a softer tip.


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[strmanglr scott]

Back when I lived in Colorado I was somewhat of a 'purist'. A dropper was as deep as I went.

Thanks!

I'm not a purist by any stretch but....
YouTube

 

[osseous]

Couple of things- 9' 5wts are pretty terrible for new fly fishers to nymph with- particularly with a Thingamabobber style indicator. This "Universal trout rod" is a disservice to our sport- where the weight of our "lures" is supposed to be incidental, and not felt. That is surely not the case with a 5 wt and a heavy indicator. A highly skilled fly angler can do a lot with 9' 5wt- but a 6 wt will make life a hell of a lot easier with Thingamabobber rigs- even fun, if you can imagine?

That's part of why you are strugging- so ditch the plastic, and switch to a yarn style indicator. I like the Dorsey style a lot- you can YouTube it. Buy some macrame yarn and rubber bands and make your own. You can order a kit from Blue Quill online if you prefer. Nice thing is, they REALLY float, and you can tailor the size to the water you are fishing and the weight of the rig you need to suspend. (Way better than the NZ system, btw)

Next- you need to learn more about how to build a load into your rod as you cast. Most people try harder- which means two things- First, they start their stroke too fast. That is the opposite of how you fix the problem. You need to start every stroke slowly- and smoothly build speed every moment during that stroke- then STOP!- Which delivers the flies to the target. You need to stop with that tip "unbending" toward your target- whether that's on your backcast, or your delivery cast. Throw that energy out and over the water- not at it.

The second big mistake most folks fall into is to pull in toward their body at the end of their back cast- causing that back cast to curve at the end. You can see this if you cast on the lawn and let a back cast fall occasionally and study it. If it curves back in toward you at the far end- that's a big issue that is robbing load, distance, delivery control, ability to throw heavy rigs, and to fight wind. Eliminate that curving back cast and everything starts to fall into place. Literally

Good luck!- Hope this helps you out

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[silver creek]

Both the New Zealand Indicator and the smaller Dorsey Indicators are intended for light rigging. They will NOT suspend a lot of mass.

They are both yarn indicators and VERY SENSITIVE to subtle takes. They do NOT need to go down to indicate a take. Pay attention to the ANGLE of the yarn indicator on the water and any CHANGE in the ANGLE is a strike.

Make the Dorsey in multiple sizes to suspend various weights. You can buy the bands in larger sizes for the larger Dorsey type indicators. If the larger Dorseys will not suspend the nymphs, I suggest the the Air Lock indicators.

The Dorsey Yarn Indicator -- Everything you need to know and a little more | Troutbitten

5/16” Orthodontic bands for the Dorsey Indicators.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l1313&_nkw=5/16”+Orthodontic+bands&_sacat=0

3/8" Orthodontic bands for the larger Dorsey Indicators.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_fr...Desc=0&_osacat=0&_odkw=1/4"+Orthodontic+bands

You Tube:

YouTube

 

[MarsB]

Good info here. One small point, make sure you are lifting your indicator fully out of the water before you start your cast.

 

[osseous]

Make the Dorsey streamside, as I do- and add as many fibers as needed for the rig you are fishing. They suspend heavy rigs just fine~

Perhaps I've just been seeing things all this time?

YouTube

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[boisker]

Like anything casting related it just comes down to practice, so stick with it..
Couple of things-
If your flies are deep ideally you need to pull them up close to the surface before moving into a PUALD, roll and water tension cast. You can do this a number of ways, but generally I’ll keep my rod tip right down to the water, extend the rod out from the body and even lean forward a bit, pull in any slack with my line hand and then slowly lift the rod and go into the required cast.
If they are really deep I’ll do a shorter roll cast just to lift the rig and line up the water column then go straight into another roll cast to get the distance....
The only other thing I found when I was prepping to go NZ and cast double 4mm tungsten nymphs (not something I ever need to do in the U.K.) was that I needed to reduce the power, smooth my cast out and wait for the line to fully unfurl... if you start the forward cast to early the weight of the nymph whips it round.... and remember the weight of the nymph makes a big difference, personally I find I don’t need to make the cast as fast or the stop as ‘tight’

 

[flytie09]

Some very good suggestions.

I will offer a few other tips. I use either a small white football foam or a Thingamabobby style indicator from 1/2" - 3/4". I've tried the yarn style and they're easier to cast...but the ones I used became water logged and I've since given up on them.

The biggest thing to remember...is no false casts.

I'll use three types of casts primarily...one as Silver mentioned which is the water loaded tension cast. Basically at the end of a drift, with the rod tip low to the water, in one continuous motion.....I snap/flip the entire rig 180 deg from the downstream to upstream position. Usually the rig stays in a nice straight untangled line as it hits the water with the fly upstream of the indy and is set up for the drift.

The other is a roll cast. You want open loops on a roll cast. You must have some line outside the tip-top to have enough mass to put the roll cast into motion. You might have to lift up or do a small roll cast to bring the flies out of the water depths some.

Sometimes when I have limited back space with overhanging trees and shrubs....I use some of my double hand casting techniques. I will use a small snap T to set the rig upriver, turn and peel line off the water to load the rod to help power a final roll cast. A similar Skagit cast where you raise the rod, pull and reset the line upriver, turn, peel and roll cast . Both handy casts to learn.

The other option when you get a lot of weight on the line and you fight with the indy sinking....is to simply take the indicator off and tight line nymph. Roll cast you rig upstream, keep the rod up and lead the drift with your rod-tip. You will be amazed how many strikes you're actually missing with using an indicator.

Another option is to take some split shot off and go with a heavier point fly like a beaded, heavily weighted stonefly nymph, larger caddis or scud and a dropper from it and tightline. This will be much easier to cast than a large mass of split shot above a point fly.

Just some thoughts....

 

[osseous]

Try the macrame yarn- it does not become waterlogged. It is polypropylene.

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[triggw]

…
Forget about when we go nymphing on a lake in still waters with 10+ feet of tippet.

You have to get the whole rig up to the surface. Pull the rod tip straight up, then make a big sweeping rod motion off your left shoulder dragging the rig as far as you can. Then sweep the rod tip around in front of you into a similar motion over your right shoulder. Then roll it from there. If you don't get it far enough, pick it up into a back cast and recast while the whole mess is still on the surface. A longer rod helps. I use a 9 1/2 ft rod and can handle up to18-20 feet of leader below the bobber. (Although it does start to get ugly.)

Otherwise what @flytie09 said.

 

[rangerrich99]

Lots of good advice here already.

But in case you feel that somehow you still need more answers . . .

Best piece of advice I can give you: don't cast double nymph rigs. Instead cast single nymph rigs and live with the idea that you're going to have to change bugs more frequently. Unless yo're on a schedule of some kind, this shouldn't be much of a problem. While we're on this point, skip the split shot as well and just use a heavier fly. Split shot only makes the possibility of bolo casts and subsequent whirly-bird tangles more likely. Just live with the fact that your fly/flies will take a bit longer to sink and cast farther upstream or wait longer for them to sink.

Roll cast nymph rigs/any rigs that have multiple flies and-or multiple weights. Roll casting reduces the likelihood of bolo casts, it's more accurate, and the flies land in a straight line. With practice, one can easily roll cast any rig up to 40 feet, or farther than necessary for nymphing.

Another issue with nymph rigs is the size of the bobber. Most people use a bobber that's far larger than necessary to float their nymphs. Experiment and find a bobber that will just barely float your flies. This serves a couple purposes, such as being less wind resistant/easier to cast, more sensitive to a sipping strike, less obtrusive to spooky fish, etc.

When still-water nymphing, try swinging your rod tip in a wide arc from side to side relatively slowly, instead of simply trying to lift your rod tip straight up to begin your back cast. This will bring more of your rig up to the surface before bringing your rod tip back for the forward stroke of your roll cast.

A slightly more advanced technique that accomplishes the same thing is to draw a large infinity sign/horizontal figure-8 with your rod tip before raising the rod up for the anticipated forward casting stroke. For a right-handed person, starting from the center of the figure-8, you'd lift diagonally to your right until the rod tip is about shoulder height and a foot or so outside your shoulder, then draw your reverse C, then sweep up and to the left again to about shoulder height, then a C, then sweep the rod tip back to the diagonal right, at which point your flies should be at/near the surface, and then proceed as a normal roll cast. Obviously, for a left-handed caster, just reverse the above.


Good luck and good hunting.

 

[Bigfly]

One thing that frustrates many casters of indicators, is using a line rated to the rod. A 6wt line on a 5wt rod rocks that indicator a lot easier. Remember, it's the line that does the work after the rod stroke.... I can see guys a hundred yards away and tell how hard he's working to get it done. It's why I use a 9wt on my 6wt switch. More work done more easily, instead of a small hammer and a big nail.. It's not unpatriotic to think outside the box, just freeing..
Not sure why some resist this, but after twenty years of testing uplining when nymphing I'm not just talking out my tushy......
It's like we know just one way to do this thing?!
If you make your own BIG yarn indies, you can float a boat anchor, or something morsalishous and big (Cray?).
I will still use yarn but don't enjoy the maintenence of combing and geasing. When I do tie them up it's white with a red core so I can see it but they can't.
My favorite indies are the Thinga mcbobbers in the right size to do the work (and color). Always the smallist I can get to float my offering. Less mass is easier to cast. I know a guy who uses an AIR type bobber that is huge and lands with a thud, and casts like doo doo.. He never changes size or color, whether fishing small and shallow, or deep and far away. Just pure laziness stops us mostly from catching fish.
Some times when I add a shot I have to increase my bobber size too. 2ABs = a 3/4" indy. Here a big bobber doesn't read well with small flies. "Was that a fish?"
One other thing.......when I work with fishers to improve their cast, they usually come from a dry fly cast.
That is a straight forward aimed cast with a tight loop. when casting an indy I tell them to throw their line more up than out, and try for a loop that you could walk through. Using this approach my students fish all day with no tangles and lots of casts. Once a fisher gets this squared away, they can just go fish.
As far as getting your flies near the surface before casting (mandatory), I/fish don't like big rod movements....so I mend toward shore, let it swing out and strip quickly with my rod tip down near the water. I go straight into my waterload from there......only one rod stroke per cast please.....high pressure fish are picky about more than which fly you choose.
No false casting, no splashy casts, no waving the rod, equals more fish in the net.
When you avoid something because it's hard.....you don't get better. When ya dial it in, what was hard, is now fun.
I say, fish 2 flies with no problems.......and catch more FISH!


Jim