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Thread: Grip question

  1. #11

    Default Re: Grip question

    Quote Originally Posted by silver creek View Post
    You are correct.

    However, even though the finger on top grip is way better than the thumb on top grip, it will still allow the the rod to tip back to about 2'clock. The 3 point will correct that to 1 O'clock.
    Hi Silver,

    Thanks for the information. I actually use all three grips and some other modifications as well depending on the type of cast.

    But when I use what is pretty much the three point grip, I like to have the hand a bit higher on the cork instead of back onto the reel seat. I do that primarily because the balance point is further forward than the reel seat. For nymphing and when stripping streamers, I actually prefer my rod hand to be high enough that the index finger sometimes is off the grip and touching the actual blank.

    Do these habits have negative impacts on the actual cast? I never completely understood why the three point grip had the hand so far back on the grip.

    Any suggestions gratefully accepted.

    Thanks,

    Don

  2. #12

    Default Re: Grip question

    Quote Originally Posted by sparsegraystubble View Post
    Hi Silver,

    Thanks for the information. I actually use all three grips and some other modifications as well depending on the type of cast.

    But when I use what is pretty much the three point grip, I like to have the hand a bit higher on the cork instead of back onto the reel seat. I do that primarily because the balance point is further forward than the reel seat. For nymphing and when stripping streamers, I actually prefer my rod hand to be high enough that the index finger sometimes is off the grip and touching the actual blank.

    Do these habits have negative impacts on the actual cast? I never completely understood why the three point grip had the hand so far back on the grip.

    Any suggestions gratefully accepted.

    Thanks,

    Don
    You don't need to use the three-point grip at the rear of the grip at all. Gary and Jason hold their rods back on the grip, so that is how they hold the grip when they demo the three-point grip.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  4. #13
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    Default Re: Grip question

    Thumb on top, only/always is my strong opinion. Pushing the thumb at the target is where accuracy is derived -- I don't buy into that natural pointing business, promotes lengthening the casting stroke. Thumb on top grip helps keep the casting stroke planar, non-planar casting stroke being a common casting fault. In the heavier line weights, that grip is integral to stabilizing the rod and generating power. Learn it early, bake it in.
    Last edited by joe_strummer; 12-02-2019 at 07:13 PM.

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  6. #14

    Default Re: Grip question

    Quote Originally Posted by joe_strummer View Post
    Thumb on top, only/always is my strong opinion. Pushing the thumb at the target is where accuracy is derived -- I don't buy into that natural pointing business, promotes lengthening the casting stroke. Thumb on top grip helps keep the casting stroke planar, non-planar casting stroke being a common casting fault. In the heavier line weights, that grip is integral to stabilizing the rod and generating power. Learn it early, bake it in.
    With all due respect, please explain in more detail since the thumb on top grip, the V grip, the three-point grip, palm out grips, etc can all keep both the back cast and forward cast in the same casting plane.

    I refer you to Al Kyte’s FFI article on Rod Grips. As Al Kyte notes, casters using the thumb on top grip sometimes rotate the rod during the backcast.

    https://flyfishersinternational.org/....Al%20Kyte.pdf

    "Thus a thumb-on top grip (Figure 1) will typically be rotated upward during the back cast to provide thumb support behind the forward cast. However some of us also turn our hands outward during the back cast and may make the forward cast with the reel out to the side. This further complicates the notion of grip, because the hand position during the cast is then different from the one taught to start the movements. Thus, those of us who rotate our hands outward may grasp the rod with the thumb on top, but make the forward cast with the thumb off to the side"

    As I noted in my previous post the finest fly caster in the world, Steve Rajeff does not use the thumb on top grip. He uses the Key Grip.

    Al Kyte writes: "There is some disagreement as to which is the strongest grip. One grip may bring stronger muscles into play, whereas another provides more rigid support from the hand. Over the years, two distance tournament casters, Tim Rajeff and Ed Mosser, have recommended to me a grip in which the knuckle of the index finger is rotated to the top of the rod. During the forward cast, the bones of the hand, rather than the thumb, then provide the support behind the rod (Figure 3). Mel Krieger has referred to this as the ‘palm-out’ grip."

    There is some also disinformation by some sources that should know better. Here is an article on grips by Sage that I feel is misleading.

    http://www.sageflyfish.com/performan...sting-the-grip

    Sage writes:

    “I strongly favor and highly recommend the TOT version because it offers distinct advantages over the other two.

    First of all, the wrist has significantly less range of motion during the casting stroke than with either the IOT or VG. Thus, the TOT grip is an easy and natural solution to a wristy casting stroke and allows for a quicker turnover as well.”

    As I have stated many times and as Mattwood as demonstrated on this very thread, the three-point grip is actually the best grip to cure a wristy back cast. Matt asked about a problem and I suggested a cure. To say to Matt that the thumb on top is always the “best grip” is not what he needed and, in my view, not what he was asking for.

    My opinion is that that there is no "best grip" for every fly caster. When a grip is NOT working for a student, and there is a grip that helps correct the casting fault, it is up to the instructor to have the student try that grip.
    Regards,

    Silver



    "Discovery consists of seeing what everybody has seen and thinking what nobody has thought"..........Szent-Gyorgy

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  8. #15
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    Default Re: Grip question

    The rod grip, the style or shape, helps determine how I hold the rod. Full Wells grips I often like my thumb on top. Cigar style grips more common in the lighter line weight rods, I like fore finger on top. I see the wrist position being independent of whatever position the hand might be in on the grip. I mean I can fix my wrist into the angle or position I desire independent of my fingers or grip.

    From what I can tell from the content shared of this post, accomplished fly fishing personalities such as Lefty or Gary Borger have different approaches to the grip that might not necessarily jive with or mirror each other. That should be enough evidence that there’s room for some diverse approaches on how a fly rod should be gripped and perhaps it’s worthwhile to explore different ways to go about it and find what works best for the individual.
    Presentations made
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  10. #16
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    Default Re: Grip question

    Just watched a bit of Jim Green's old video and he said wrap the fingers and put the thumb "kinda on top" but when he casts the thumb is kinda wrapped too. I went fishing today and paid attention too how i hold the rod; I use the about same loose grip that I do for a hammer, thumb sorta on the side and fingers kinda wrapped around. If I had read This thread 50 years ago it might have changed the way I fish, so I'm thankful I didn't have internet then.

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  12. #17

    Default Re: Grip question

    Quote Originally Posted by silver creek View Post

    My opinion is that that there is no "best grip" for every fly caster. When a grip is NOT working for a student, and there is a grip that helps correct the casting fault, it is up to the instructor to have the student try that grip.
    There you have it- We are all going to gravitate toward one method, but the longer you do this, and the more people you work with, the more you realize that people are individuals. Physiology is far from absolute. The instructor who brings an absolutist approach to their method is going to be met with mixed results. Just as students RECEIVE instruction in different ways- and we must adapt out communication until it is understood by the individual- the body transmits in different ways as well. Not everyone is going to become comfortable with "our" way, or "the" way. Each student needs to find their way- with our assistance to stay within the confines of appropriate physics to deliver the line. I always try to provide an understanding of what the rod needs to have happen- how you get there is of less consequence. It doesn't matter if you did a double haul, if the fly landed in a pile of leader to the left of your line path. You need a haul less than you need a fishable cast. Line path trumps double haul. Comfort and longevity trumps grip. If you can create a straight path, develop a deep load, hit your targets to your satisfaction- while not breaking down over the course of a long day of casting- use whatever grip you favor.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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  14. #18

    Default Re: Grip question

    The goal is to get the tip of your rod traveling is in a relatively straight path. It's got to track straight. Whatever grip you chose to use should facilitate that goal. People are different. What works for some won't work for others. I like a v grip most of the time. I might change to a thumb on top for really short casts.

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  16. #19
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    Default Re: Grip question

    Quote Originally Posted by Flafly14
    "The goal is to get the tip of your rod traveling is in a relatively straight path. It's got to track straight. Whatever grip you chose to use should facilitate that goal."
    There you go! Try them all!

    Lefty used a thumb "on top" but he always cast sidearm, rod horizontal to the water. Because of our anatomy, one can take a long stroke with the thumb on "top" or more accurately "behind" when casting horizontally and still maintain tracking in a straight line.

    Try that grip overhead, and you have to twist your forearm very painfully in a clockwise direction on the backcast to maintain straight tracking once the forearm passes the 90 degree position with the upper arm. So you limit your stroke length.

    With the palm forward position, you can lay your arm out parallel to the ground both behind you and in front of you without stressing the elbow joint.

    So it depends on what kind of fishing you are doing ie. brook trout or casting a mile into the surf, and whether you are strong as a bear of slinky like a lynx.

    I would hate to have to cast a 620 gr. wt forward using either a thumb on top or a forefinger on top grip because someone told me a palm forward grip was a no no. So try them all and get used to them all. Same with overhead and sidearm casts. They both have their applications.
    http://www.miterclamp.com/Images/N_Amer_FF.jpg Cheers, Jim

  17. #20

    Default Re: Grip question

    Lefty did not teach "side arm" or "always" cast in any particular fashion. I read this constantly- and it is patently false. If you took a class with him, you would know that to be the case. I think he was saddled with this because he was the first one to break away from the tradition of a vertical casting plane.

    He had 4 fundamental principles- and "side arm" does not appear in any of them. His principles can be applied to any plane of cast~ and he distinctly taught to "accelerate the rod tip to a stop, in the direction you need the line to go". His casting plane was often a low back cast and a high forward cast, in fact. Always in plane.

    Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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