I'm new to flyfishing and I can already tell it will become a new passion. I've been practicing in my yard trying to improve my cast. I know the thumb on top is the preferred grip but for some odd reason I don't load the rod as well as when I have the index finger down the top of the grip or even when I use more of a V grip. I have very large hands and I'm not sure if the long length of my index finger adds more leverage or if I'm doing something ineffective when I use my thumb. A second factor is that I have some arthritis in the basal joint of my thumb that gets sore after a while and I"m not sure if that prevents me loading the rod as well. I don't want to develop some bad habits so I would appreciate any advice. Thanks.
Grip question
- Thread starter mattwood
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Bigfly
Well-known member
Mattwood, glad you are practicing....many don't, and we see the result on the water......make a game out of it, so you do more, AND have some fun too. Play horse, darts scoring too....or dance a bit before the cast...
We all have different bio-mechanics, some of which can be altered over time.....some of our mechanics can't.
The outcome is, we have to make it work however....
The index finger on top is for accuracy casting...shorter very precise placements.
Thumb on top is for power/distance.
The V grip works too....
I couldn't cast all day with my index on top, because of stiffening fingers....but I can shift my grip for a single cast or so....
More important than grip, is rod path.......keep it as straight as possible for best results....I say if you don't put anything funny into the cast, nothing funny comes out!
Keep at it....
Jim
We all have different bio-mechanics, some of which can be altered over time.....some of our mechanics can't.
The outcome is, we have to make it work however....
The index finger on top is for accuracy casting...shorter very precise placements.
Thumb on top is for power/distance.
The V grip works too....
I couldn't cast all day with my index on top, because of stiffening fingers....but I can shift my grip for a single cast or so....
More important than grip, is rod path.......keep it as straight as possible for best results....I say if you don't put anything funny into the cast, nothing funny comes out!
Keep at it....
Jim
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silver creek
Well-known member
While the thumb on top grip may be the most popular grip, it is not the best grip for beginners because it sets beginners up for a very common casting fault. If you have problems with your backcast, the thumb on top grip may be the cause
If I ask you to point at something, do you point at it with your thumb or your index finger? When you aim a pistol at a target, why are the grip and the barrel not in a straight line like a fly rod. Why is the pistol grip offset from the barrel? The reason is that the natural way we point and aim is with the index finger and our forearm. Why then are most beginners taught with the thumb on top grip that lines the rod up with the thumb?
Steve Rajeff How To Cast A Fly Rod - YouTube
The thing I noticed on Steve Rajeff's video is that he does NOT use the thumb on top grip that most newbies as told to use. Look at 50 seconds on the video and he is using the "key" grip (he holds the rod grip as you would hold a key). It is called the palm out grip in the the article by Al Kyte below. Lefty Kreh also does not use the thumb on top grip.
Of the well known instructors, only Joan Wulff insists on the thumb on top grip. Ironically, Lee Wulff used the 3 point grip as I will describe later.
Al Kyte discusses the various grips in the article below. He says that it may look like casters start with the thumb on top grip, but as they cast; they switch to the key grip. This is exactly what Steve Rajeff does.
Al Kyte
The thumb on top grip is actually not what many of the best casters use. Nor is the thumb on top grip the best grip for those beginners with the windshield wiper or igloo casting stoke that results in the floppy forward and and back casts.
To see why this commonly occurs let's go back to the gun example.
Make a "gun" with your rod hand (make a fist and then open and extend your thumb and index finger). Raise your "gun" so that your index finger just in front of your your ear. Turn you head and look at your hand. Your upper arm should be about parallel to the ground and your index finger will be pointing between 12 and 1 o'clock. This is a very natural "stop" position for the back cast and it naturally places the rod tip pointing at about 1 o'clock.
But look at the position of your thumb. Your thumb is pointing to 3 o'clock. To get the thumb to point at 1 o'clock we must forcibly flex our wrist forward into an unnatural and awkward position. Flex your wrist to get your thumb pointing to 1 o'clock. Does this feel natural to you? This is a major reason that beginning casters that start with the thumb on top position tend to "naturally" bring the rod tip back too far because they want to hold their wrists in a more natural position.
Keep your hand opposite your ear with the index finger and thumb extended. Now grip/grasp hard with the remaining fingers. While grasping, try to move your index finger so it points back. You cannot. Your index finger will not bend back any further when you are clenching your hand. This is what is cause a firm stop on the backcast at 1o'clock if you use a rod grip that lines the rod up with your index finger. You not only stop the rod at the right position BUT you also get a firm stop at that position.
What if there was a rod grip that allowed them to hold the wrist naturally but positioned the fly rod correctly? What if this grip also helped perform a firm stop when the beginner when the beginner gripped the rod. And what if that grip allowed the beginner to point the rod at their target in line with their index finger rather than their thumb? Wouldn't that be a better beginner's grip?
There is a rod grip that does all the things we want a beginner's rod grip to do. It aims the rod at the target with the index finger and lines the rod up with the forearm. It creates a stop at the right angle and prevents dropping the rod back too far on the backcast. It not only stops the rod at the right position BUT it forces a firm stop at that position. It is called the three point grip. I allow beginners to start with the thumb on top grip if they choose but if they are flopping the rod back too far on the backcast, I have them try the three point grip.
I allow beginners to start with the grip of choice. But rather than insisting that there is a single best grip for casting, one needs to see what the deficiencies are in the cast and IF a grip change is a simple solution.
So how do we hold the rod in the 3 point grip?
Here is the 3 point grip as demonstrated by Jason Borger.
YouTube
Lee Wulff used the 3 point grip as seen in still frame from the video below.
YouTube
Gary explains the 3 point grip on his blog.
Gary Borger >> Blog Archive >> Three Point Grip Part I
http://www.garyborger.com/2012/12/26/three-point-grip-part-ii/
http://www.garyborger.com/2013/01/31/three-point-grip-variations/
Gary has this audience point during his casting demonstrations to make the “point” that we all naturally point with our index finger at the 2018 Malboro.
http://www.garyborger.com/2018/01/20/marlboro-fly-fishing-show-2018/
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rusty 54
Well-known member
You may be breaking your wrist on the back cast when using thumb on top. The finger on top prevents that. When practicing, watch your backcast to make sure it is a tight loop.
silver creek
Well-known member
You are correct.
However, even though the finger on top grip is way better than the thumb on top grip, it will still allow the the rod to tip back to about 2'clock. The 3 point will correct that to 1 O'clock.
Silver, thank you, thank you, thank you. This afternoon I practiced using the 3 point grip and maybe a slight variation to it in more of a key grip position and my casting was much, much better. Not that I know much about tight loops, but they were far better than with my thumb on top. And distance was much better as well! I could really feel the rod load better and it seemed to naturally stop at the right position due to the nature of the grip. I think one of the keys of this grip is the heel of the hand sitting on the reel seat. Just feels like I have more control and power.
silver creek
Well-known member
You are very welcome. I'm glad I was able to help.
How you "grip" or hold the fly rod changes how the fly rod aligns with your and and therefore how it lines up with your forearm. The grip also determines how far back you can drop the rod angle on your backcast.
For beginners who tend to lay their wrist back on the backcast, the 3 point grip can "block" this because the anatomy of the hand and wrist relative to the forearm will not allow the rod to be laid back.
Lefty used thumb on top- that certainly doesn't mean everyone has to. But he definitely did. It was a big part of his method- I taught with him on several occasions over a 10 year span, and I continue to teach his method to this day- in the way he taught it to me. Just pick up one of his books. He talked about the thumbnail directing the backcast- and having the thumb on top of the grip was key to this.
There are many viable methods, and I do not mean to discount the valuable information being shared- One of the myriad of things Lefty excelled at was adapting his principles to the individual- He wanted everyone to have the best experience in the outdoors that they could-
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There are many viable methods, and I do not mean to discount the valuable information being shared- One of the myriad of things Lefty excelled at was adapting his principles to the individual- He wanted everyone to have the best experience in the outdoors that they could-
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sparsegraystubble
Well-known member
Hi Silver,
Thanks for the information. I actually use all three grips and some other modifications as well depending on the type of cast.
But when I use what is pretty much the three point grip, I like to have the hand a bit higher on the cork instead of back onto the reel seat. I do that primarily because the balance point is further forward than the reel seat. For nymphing and when stripping streamers, I actually prefer my rod hand to be high enough that the index finger sometimes is off the grip and touching the actual blank.
Do these habits have negative impacts on the actual cast? I never completely understood why the three point grip had the hand so far back on the grip.
Any suggestions gratefully accepted.
Thanks,
Don
silver creek
Well-known member
You don't need to use the three-point grip at the rear of the grip at all. Gary and Jason hold their rods back on the grip, so that is how they hold the grip when they demo the three-point grip.
J
joe_strummer
Guest
Thumb on top, only/always is my strong opinion. Pushing the thumb at the target is where accuracy is derived -- I don't buy into that natural pointing business, promotes lengthening the casting stroke. Thumb on top grip helps keep the casting stroke planar, non-planar casting stroke being a common casting fault. In the heavier line weights, that grip is integral to stabilizing the rod and generating power. Learn it early, bake it in.
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silver creek
Well-known member
With all due respect, please explain in more detail since the thumb on top grip, the V grip, the three-point grip, palm out grips, etc can all keep both the back cast and forward cast in the same casting plane.
I refer you to Al Kyte’s FFI article on Rod Grips. As Al Kyte notes, casters using the thumb on top grip sometimes rotate the rod during the backcast.
https://flyfishersinternational.org/Portals/0/Documents/Casting/MCI/Grip and Stance.Al Kyte.pdf
"Thus a thumb-on top grip (Figure 1) will typically be rotated upward during the back cast to provide thumb support behind the forward cast. However some of us also turn our hands outward during the back cast and may make the forward cast with the reel out to the side. This further complicates the notion of grip, because the hand position during the cast is then different from the one taught to start the movements. Thus, those of us who rotate our hands outward may grasp the rod with the thumb on top, but make the forward cast with the thumb off to the side"
As I noted in my previous post the finest fly caster in the world, Steve Rajeff does not use the thumb on top grip. He uses the Key Grip.
Al Kyte writes: "There is some disagreement as to which is the strongest grip. One grip may bring stronger muscles into play, whereas another provides more rigid support from the hand. Over the years, two distance tournament casters, Tim Rajeff and Ed Mosser, have recommended to me a grip in which the knuckle of the index finger is rotated to the top of the rod. During the forward cast, the bones of the hand, rather than the thumb, then provide the support behind the rod (Figure 3). Mel Krieger has referred to this as the ‘palm-out’ grip."
There is some also disinformation by some sources that should know better. Here is an article on grips by Sage that I feel is misleading.
http://www.sageflyfish.com/performance-fly-casting-the-grip
Sage writes:
“I strongly favor and highly recommend the TOT version because it offers distinct advantages over the other two.
First of all, the wrist has significantly less range of motion during the casting stroke than with either the IOT or VG. Thus, the TOT grip is an easy and natural solution to a wristy casting stroke and allows for a quicker turnover as well.”
As I have stated many times and as Mattwood as demonstrated on this very thread, the three-point grip is actually the best grip to cure a wristy back cast. Matt asked about a problem and I suggested a cure. To say to Matt that the thumb on top is always the “best grip” is not what he needed and, in my view, not what he was asking for.
My opinion is that that there is no "best grip" for every fly caster. When a grip is NOT working for a student, and there is a grip that helps correct the casting fault, it is up to the instructor to have the student try that grip.
karstopo
Well-known member
The rod grip, the style or shape, helps determine how I hold the rod. Full Wells grips I often like my thumb on top. Cigar style grips more common in the lighter line weight rods, I like fore finger on top. I see the wrist position being independent of whatever position the hand might be in on the grip. I mean I can fix my wrist into the angle or position I desire independent of my fingers or grip.
From what I can tell from the content shared of this post, accomplished fly fishing personalities such as Lefty or Gary Borger have different approaches to the grip that might not necessarily jive with or mirror each other. That should be enough evidence that there’s room for some diverse approaches on how a fly rod should be gripped and perhaps it’s worthwhile to explore different ways to go about it and find what works best for the individual.
From what I can tell from the content shared of this post, accomplished fly fishing personalities such as Lefty or Gary Borger have different approaches to the grip that might not necessarily jive with or mirror each other. That should be enough evidence that there’s room for some diverse approaches on how a fly rod should be gripped and perhaps it’s worthwhile to explore different ways to go about it and find what works best for the individual.
trev
Well-known member
Just watched a bit of Jim Green's old video and he said wrap the fingers and put the thumb "kinda on top" but when he casts the thumb is kinda wrapped too. I went fishing today and paid attention too how i hold the rod; I use the about same loose grip that I do for a hammer, thumb sorta on the side and fingers kinda wrapped around. If I had read This thread 50 years ago it might have changed the way I fish, so I'm thankful I didn't have internet then.
There you have it- We are all going to gravitate toward one method, but the longer you do this, and the more people you work with, the more you realize that people are individuals. Physiology is far from absolute. The instructor who brings an absolutist approach to their method is going to be met with mixed results. Just as students RECEIVE instruction in different ways- and we must adapt out communication until it is understood by the individual- the body transmits in different ways as well. Not everyone is going to become comfortable with "our" way, or "the" way. Each student needs to find their way- with our assistance to stay within the confines of appropriate physics to deliver the line. I always try to provide an understanding of what the rod needs to have happen- how you get there is of less consequence. It doesn't matter if you did a double haul, if the fly landed in a pile of leader to the left of your line path. You need a haul less than you need a fishable cast. Line path trumps double haul. Comfort and longevity trumps grip. If you can create a straight path, develop a deep load, hit your targets to your satisfaction- while not breaking down over the course of a long day of casting- use whatever grip you favor.
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The goal is to get the tip of your rod traveling is in a relatively straight path. It's got to track straight. Whatever grip you chose to use should facilitate that goal. People are different. What works for some won't work for others. I like a v grip most of the time. I might change to a thumb on top for really short casts.
wjc
Well-known member
There you go! Try them all!Flafly14 said:
Lefty used a thumb "on top" but he always cast sidearm, rod horizontal to the water. Because of our anatomy, one can take a long stroke with the thumb on "top" or more accurately "behind" when casting horizontally and still maintain tracking in a straight line.
Try that grip overhead, and you have to twist your forearm very painfully in a clockwise direction on the backcast to maintain straight tracking once the forearm passes the 90 degree position with the upper arm. So you limit your stroke length.
With the palm forward position, you can lay your arm out parallel to the ground both behind you and in front of you without stressing the elbow joint.
So it depends on what kind of fishing you are doing ie. brook trout or casting a mile into the surf, and whether you are strong as a bear of slinky like a lynx.
I would hate to have to cast a 620 gr. wt forward using either a thumb on top or a forefinger on top grip because someone told me a palm forward grip was a no no. So try them all and get used to them all. Same with overhead and sidearm casts. They both have their applications.
Lefty did not teach "side arm" or "always" cast in any particular fashion. I read this constantly- and it is patently false. If you took a class with him, you would know that to be the case. I think he was saddled with this because he was the first one to break away from the tradition of a vertical casting plane.
He had 4 fundamental principles- and "side arm" does not appear in any of them. His principles can be applied to any plane of cast~ and he distinctly taught to "accelerate the rod tip to a stop, in the direction you need the line to go". His casting plane was often a low back cast and a high forward cast, in fact. Always in plane.
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He had 4 fundamental principles- and "side arm" does not appear in any of them. His principles can be applied to any plane of cast~ and he distinctly taught to "accelerate the rod tip to a stop, in the direction you need the line to go". His casting plane was often a low back cast and a high forward cast, in fact. Always in plane.
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