Affordable Tenkara/Keiryu fly rod for Euro nymphing? (Daiwa Kiyose 36S-F?)

[flyfishnwstrnct]

Hi,

I'm on a limited budget and would like to try Euro nymphing. A friend in Europe said that on medium-sized streams there they use 11' fly rods for that technique, but as I can't afford a full rod setup right now, and as the fly line and reel are hardly used, I thought, why not try tenkara Euro Nymphing instead? After all, in competitions they use reels and line just because they have to!

So I read a little more about it and found out that some folks use the Tenkara USA Amago rod, and others use similar but stiffer bait rods (keiryu).

My question is, what do you folks think of the Daiwa Kiyose 36S-F? It's longer (11'10") than the more popular Kiyose 33S-F (10'10"), and more affordable (around $90 on Ebay) than the newer model, the Daiwa Keiryu-X 33 or 36. But will it feel the contour of the bottom, every rock bump and every bite like a high quality "regular" setup?

It's my understanding that one needs a longer Tenkara rod as opposed to a fly rod with line and reel, to make up for its lack of those; I live in Connecticut and think I'd probably use it primarily to fish the Farmington River. Thus my questions whether I should spring for the longer Kiyose 36S-F, or stick to the the "smaller", more popular 33S-F. Or maybe there is another, better, nymphing Tenkara/Kiyose rod that's under ~$100 to 120? (And is the newer Keiryu-X really worth the extra $30? They just have a slightly higher penny rating and fancier wrapping.)

Anyone tried the Kiyose 36S-F for Euro nymphing? What setup (leader, etc.) did you use?

I have tried tenkara and valsesiana before with very little success... I didn't persevere because I just craved a fly reel with line whose length I could modify, but when it comes to Euro nymphing, it sounds like most times you don't need the reel or the fly line.

I really appreciate your advice.

Thanks!

John

PS Please don't tell me to save my money until I can afford a Sage ESN. I don't want to start saving money to buy a Euro nymphing-dedicated rod, spool and fly line (even more "affordable" ones such as the Cortland Competition or Syndicate or Mystic,) until I know I enjoy this way of fly fishing. Plus I want to play around with the Spanish and Polish/Czech techniques.

 

[tcorfey]

I use a Nissin Fine Mode Kosansui 320 for that purpose. I use two different lines depending on conditions or my mood. Either the Cutthroat leaders 50" Hi-vis nymphing leader with appropriate length tippet in 5X or a Rio indicator tapered leader at 10' for 5X for other times. Works great on the Pit river in CA where I do a lot of boulder crawling and I can carry it collapsed until I need it. I have caught Rainbows up to 16-17" with it.

From the Tenkara Bum website:
Length Extended 10'3"
Length Collapsed 20.5"
Weight 1.7 oz
Pennies 25
Tippet 7X - 5X
Price $110.00 (unfortunately they are out of stock a this time)

I used to have the same rod in the 450cm model but, gave that to my nephew in CT so he could join his dad on fly fishing excursions.

Those rods are lots of fun! I still carry a western rod for most of my fishing but it is a lot easier to break out the Tenkara for some deep nymphing once in a while. I had my son take the 320 up to the Sierras on a Boy Scout Backpacking trip this summer and he caught a bunch of trout using a standard 9' tapered leader and a parachute Adams on it the whole time. I also find it a useful technique in off color/dirty water as I can feel my way along the bottom and also get real close to the trout during those times.

By the way the state of CT lifted it's restrictions on using Tenkara rods in FF only areas in 2018 so you are good to go.

Regards,

Tim C.

 

[flyfishnwstrnct]

Hi Tim,

Wow, the Nissin Fine Mode Kosansui looks very, very interesting! Thank you for bringing that up to my attention. Are you having no problem using multiple nymph flies including the heavily weighted one at the bottom, in 3'+ of water? And does the tip transmit every bump and take? (I'd like to try Czech & Spanish nymphing.)

I would probably go for a slightly longer rod, such as the 11'8" long Nissin Fine Mode Kosansui Koucho 360 (I think the 390 is too long to cast heavy nymphs, at almost 13': I imagine I'd get tired soon. But perhaps I'm wrong!) Chris, of TenkaraBum.com, writes that: "They're a little on the stiff side." - But I think he's referring to that rod as kind of a Tenkara/Keiryu hybrid, as he describes casting with it

The Kosanai rods look interesting to me because their tips (from what I can tell) are less stiff than the Kiyose: isn't a "regular" Euro nymphing rod supposed to have a very ligh, sensitive tip with the sturdiness closer to the hand to handle the nymphs and fish?

What strikes me about the Kosansui rods is how lightweight they are to be Keiryu rods! They also have a much lighter penny rating than the Daiwa Kiyose or the newer Daiwa Keiryu-X:

• Daiwa Kiyose 36S-F
  
  Total length: 3.61 m (11' 10")
  Number of Pieces: 12
  Closed dimensions: 39.0 cm (1' 3")
  Weight: 84 g
  Carbon content: 78%
  Penny rating: 36​
  
  
• Nissin Fine Mode Kosansui Koucho 360
  
  Total length: 3.55 m ( 11 ' 08 " )
  Number of Pieces: 8
  Closed dimensions: 53cm ( 1 ' 09 ")
  Weight: 65 g ( 0.14 lb )
  Carbon content: 94%
  Penny rating: 28​

Unfortunately I don't know everything the numbers above mean, in terms of indicating which rod is better.

- Anyone else have tried Tenkara/Keiryu for Euro nymphing?

Thanks again, Tim!

I use a Nissin Fine Mode Kosansui 320 for that purpose. I use two different lines depending on conditions or my mood. Either the Cutthroat leaders 50" Hi-vis nymphing leader with appropriate length tippet in 5X or a Rio indicator tapered leader at 10' for 5X for other times. Works great on the Pit river in CA where I do a lot of boulder crawling and I can carry it collapsed until I need it. I have caught Rainbows up to 16-17" with it.

From the Tenkara Bum website:
Length Extended 10'3"
Length Collapsed 20.5"
Weight 1.7 oz
Pennies 25
Tippet 7X - 5X
Price $110.00 (unfortunately they are out of stock a this time)

I used to have the same rod in the 450cm model but, gave that to my nephew in CT so he could join his dad on fly fishing excursions.

Those rods are lots of fun! I still carry a western rod for most of my fishing but it is a lot easier to break out the Tenkara for some deep nymphing once in a while. I had my son take the 320 up to the Sierras on a Boy Scout Backpacking trip this summer and he caught a bunch of trout using a standard 9' tapered leader and a parachute Adams on it the whole time. I also find it a useful technique in off color/dirty water as I can feel my way along the bottom and also get real close to the trout during those times.

By the way the state of CT lifted it's restrictions on using Tenkara rods in FF only areas in 2018 so you are good to go.

Regards,

Tim C.

 

[tcorfey]

No problem with multiple flies, on the Pit river I use multiple flies in about 4'-6' of water. But in shallow water I only use one fly. I was on the Upper part of the Stanislaus last spring right after some rain so the water was the color of coffee and using a tactical hook bh pheasant tail in 2-3' of water and did very well. The Nissan has a good backbone that you can put some power in to when controlling the fish but the tip is very sensitive given that it's diameter is thinner than your average WF fly line (maybe about the diameter of a streamer hook shank) and because the handle is just wrapped with a non-slip covering instead of cork you can feel everything. The lack of a cork handle also keeps it very lightweight. I agree that the longer rods can tire your arm faster, the 450 I had was not as comfortable to use as the 320 but I could cover more water with the longer rod. My other rod is a Fountainhead 360 and that is a Tenkara rod with a cork handle. That I use for dry flies and soft hackles. With my 320 my combined leader and tippet length is usually 10-12'.

Regards,

Tim C.

 

[gpwhitejr]

I have the Daiwa Keiryu-X 39, which is about 13 feet long. I haven't tried "Euro nymphing," but I have used it for big bass flies and streamers and the like and it works fine for that (I caught a big cutthroat on a Woolly Bugger at Yellowstone and it handled that fish without difficulty - that is the biggest fish I have caught on it so far. I am toying with the idea of trying it in the salt in the Keys in March). I imagine it would not not have any problem with multiple nymphs and split shot and indicators and all that.

 

[patrick62]

I've used a Wetfly 12 foot rod in the Housatonic with combinations of nymphs and wets with considerable success. It's a stiffer rod and relatively inexpensive. (I found mine at Sierra Trading Post for a song.)

 

[flyfishnwstrnct]

Thank you all so very much. Decisions, decisions!!

Patrick, thanks for referring me to the Wetfly 12' rod; unfortunately Sierra Trading Post only has the 8' model left, but I'll have to check the website more often!

G.P. White, Jr., thanks for your input! So many people have written about the Daiwa Keiryu-X series, and I very much like the 39's length! The fact that you're thinking about trying it for saltwater fishing, though, makes me a little concerned that it may be too stiff of a rod for trout. (That's probably a reflection of my ignorance, but I can't imagine a "regular" trout fly rod being enjoyed and used with much success in saltwater, unless perhaps one's going after young schoolie stripers or snapper bluefish.) The rod's heavier weight and higher penny rating, especially as one goes longer, concerns me.
By the way, Arturo Alonso, a Spaniard, has some interesting videos on YouTube about fishing saltwater with Keiryu rods (Arturo Alonso
- YouTube) - If you don't speak Spanish either, you can turn on the translated closed captions.

Tim, the more you talk about the Nissin Fine Mode Kosansui, the more it sounds appealing!

Has anyone heard of, or tried the following rod?

• Tenkara USA - Hane

Total length: 3.30 m (10 ' 10 ")
Number of Pieces: 12
Closed dimensions: 38cm (1 ' 3")
Weight: 100 g (3.5 oz) - I'm amazed that it wouldn't be considerably lighter.​

I like the 13 ' 06 " of the Amago (but it's not portable in the vest's back pouch) and even more the portability of the Hane. Both are indicated for heavier nymphs and streamers, but most of all I like that they come with a lifetime warranty (I am a little bit of a klutz.) Still, they are heavier than the Nissin or the Keiryu-X.

My understanding about Chris Stewart (I have purchased a Daiwa Soyokaze 27 SR rod and materials from him in the past and very much appreciate his wealth of knowledge and his TenkaraBum.com website) is that he may or may not have spare parts around if you break a rod, which is too bad.

Thank you all!!

 

[lookard]

These rods are so light and balance pretty well. I use the Daiwa Kiyose 43M (this size is great!). My buddy and I have both brought out 15 and 18 ft "carp" type tenkara rods to the Farmington to fish as well. It was winter and we didnt want to stand too deep in the water. This past spring, my buddy used the Kyogi 18 at the EB Delware river because of the high water for trout.

 

[rsagebrush]

Just make sure it has a stiff tip unlike a true tenkara rod which makes setting the hook almost impossible, plus breakage.

I might look at the Suntech Fieldmaster 39 which is a three way rod from 10'5", 11'8" and 12'8" its made for beefy fish and nymphs really well for me. Plus I can change lengths when necessary.

The Daiwa 43 is another good one as well as all the others mentioned.

 

[gpwhitejr]

So many people have written about the Daiwa Keiryu-X series, and I very much like the 39's length! The fact that you're thinking about trying it for saltwater fishing, though, makes me a little concerned that it may be too stiff of a rod for trout.

I have caught little brook trout at a small local stream and it may indeed be a bit of overkill for that (my conventional rod for that stream is a 6 foot 3 wt fiberglass Cabela's Prime. I just bought a Nissin Prosquare 320 tenkara rod but haven't used it yet; it feels very light and delicate compared to the Keiryu-X). For kayak bass fishing though the Keiryu-X is ideal: no loose fly line catching on rod holders and hatch covers and paddles and all that stuff. I think it would handle small schoolie stripers, snappers, mackerel, etc. I won't try to catch a marlin though.

 

[patrick62]

Even at the full price the Wetfly rod is affordable. However, the "line" they give you is like a piece of light fly line. I found it useless, and use either a level fluorocarbon line or, more likely, lines that are like a furled leader, but thinner.

WETFLY KODOMO CREEK 12FT TENKARA KIT — WETFLY

 

[scorpion1971]

I recommend you get either the Suntech TenkaraBum 40 or the Riverworks ZX3 360 rod. I know these are more than you want to spend but in my opinion they are better at nymphing than any other rod out there. I know Rob Worthing uses a Riverworks rod and he us a Tenkara Nymph Guide.