Muskellenge, Northern Pike or Tiger Musky?

chuck s · Mar 10, 2012

For those of you lucky enough to have fished for all three is there a difference in how you like to fish for them or do you make subtle adjustments in your fishing dependant on species? :secret: For those who aren't that lucky how about tips or hints for the species you have fished for? Time of year, bottom, structure, weeds, temps, overcast/not, etc.

opcorn: I'll pass along some info I've garnered over the past half century mol once the discussion gets going.:shades:

chuck s · Mar 11, 2012

I see a few looky loos but no discussion or information.

Hmmmm getting license tomorrow and going Tiger fishing then. Have a great day and get out fishing!

ghost_reaper · Mar 11, 2012

I've caught a decent amount of Muskie and a few Tiger's but not on the fly. In Wisconsin, the best time to catch them is when the water is starting to warm up. As soon as the bait fish move to the shallows it's GAME ON. Pike are the same way. I plan to fish for them this summer. I'll keep you posted on my luck.

chuck s · Mar 11, 2012

chuck s · Mar 14, 2012

Food for thought: In one well thought out and conducted study the researchers found that: For every

1 ----- Musky caught in the study there were

3.1 --- Tiger Muskies caught and

4.2 --- Pike caught when species densities were matched in the fishing area and angler hours were equal. In short a Pike is easiest with a Tiger being a bit harder to catch. The true Muskies are the hardest and are 4 times as hard to catch as a big Pike.

Are Pike easy? Does your experience reflect this? Does the ratios change when it's big trophy sized fish we are speaking off? (the fish in the study were pretty well size matched and in that 2-3 ft length) if I recall right.

iaflyguy · Mar 14, 2012

Ok, here is my thought.
I did well with the Pike last year on a center pin bait caster with a chartreuse spinner. This year I made two "fly spinners" to try on the fly rod. Its basically a beetle spinner with a chartreuse crazy leg fly. I found a video of it on a very popular video hosting site and decided to try it.
I realize its blurring the line between hardware and a fly, but I figure it might be fun.

bucktail · Mar 14, 2012

Okay I have fished northerns, muskie, and tiger musky. I have caught alot of pike and tigers but never a pure strain(all on conventional tackle). Here are my thoughts a tiger musky is a hybrid of a pike and a musky the DNR usually stocks them because grow fast and are very catchable putting more people on the lake (just look at minnesota metro area). I think that these fish tend to follow their pike jeans more than their musky and here is why.....Unlike a pure strain tigers tend to go after smaller baits just as a pike would do. On the lake I fish for them I have caught them all on a twister tail with heavy braided line(my buddy has landed multiple 40 pluse inch fish this way) This does not mean that big musky baits cant get the job done trolling super shad raps and belivers has yeilded results. But more have been caught on bass sized crankbaits, small bucktails, and jig and grub combinations than any other method I have seen. Nextwe have pike I have caught them in canada, minnesota, and wisconsin. They I belive are the easiest to catch they seem tohave an uncontrollable predator instinct. Once again I feel form my experience that you use bass gear with a wire leader not a pure strain musky pule cue 200 pound teset and a lure with 20 trebs in it....One thing to understandabout pike that will help you immensly is understanding this smal pike tend to stay in warmer water, medium like cool, and big pike are a coldwaterfish that will come up every now and a gain to search the shallows sun its self or spawn in the spring when those shallows are cool. The way around this is look for a cold spring or creek flowing into the lake that givesthem a reason to sit shallow. Just for perspective about a year and a half ago we slammedsome giants im talking 10 30 pluseinch fish in two days with 6 inch suckers but in the summer thay only wanted smal bass sized jointed rapalas. Its more up toyour fish and body of water. Im sorry for all of my modern tackle speak I started flyfishing like a year ago after fishing that style my whole life still got that nonsense in my head. Im heading back to those lakes with my flyrod only this year!!! hope the info helps

Bucktail

jhammer · Mar 14, 2012

I've been lucky enough to not really have to do much overhead casting for pike. The ones I fish for are in small rivers and my 8 wt handles them just fine. I really enjoy just roll casting to them.

I did find a new spot where I'm gonna have to start working my casting arm though.

As for flies, bunny leeches have been my go-to flies.

chuck s · Mar 14, 2012

:thmbup: Great points all! Here's another tidbit that is part experience and part from others. I find that Pike are first in, in the spring. By in I mean up shallow, what say you? :icon_ques I worked for John Propp, holder of six tippet class IGFA records for a year or two and knew him much longer and he'd always try and hit a really far north location, close to the NW territories, very early, as that's when he found those huge Pike up and hungry! That leads me to another as the "Northern" Pike got it's name for it's predilection for lakes and rivers, further north. Of course man got involved and stocked them here and there but with Pike and Tigers in large part, look for cooler waters just as the true Muskys will be found where/when it's warmer.:shades:

Didgeridoo · Mar 15, 2012

The largest pike in North America reside along the upper reach of Saskatchewan and Manitoba and into the Northwest Territories. Here the fish grow big and this is due to the fact there's little fishing pressure, catch and release fishing, cool water temperatures, and perhaps most importantly, a steady supply of food. In these northern locations, pike feed heavily on ciscos, lake trout, grayling, burbot and the occasional smaller pike.

My good friend was the head guide at both Wollaston and Selwyn, and the only person I call a true "guru" when it comes to pike fishing. I swear he's part pike. He still holds the lake records for both of those lakes with his largest at 54" with conventional gear and a 51" on fly gear.

Definitely you want to plan your trip within the first couple of weeks of the lodge opening. This is typically the best time and is right after spawning. The absolute best time is before ice-out, when only the back bays or spawning bays are open but the main body is still frozen. At this time the largest pike in the lake will be holding up shallow and picking off any baitfish coming into the bay to seek out warmer waters. The entrance of a feeder creek, and a bay that faces south with a dark or muddy bottom is like gold.

My number one pike fly is one that I call a Hollow Pike Fly. I don't use rabbit strips at all. Although they provide great action, once water-logged they become an air-to-face missile! The Hollow fly is tied with all your materials, except for the tail, tied forward. Then you separate the top and bottom halves and fold it all back and epoxy the head. This way you create a huge profile fly but you can still cast it. Also by using almost entirely synthetic materials, it won't absorb water. You can tie this in any colour combo you so desire.

Hollow Pike Fly
Hook: Partridge CS43 Absolute Pike Hook 2/0, 4/0, or 6/0
Thread: Black Kevlar 3/0
Tail: UV Pearl Krystal Flash and White Bucktail
Overwing: Black Synthetic Big Fly Hair, Black Icelandic Sheep's hair, Silver Krystal Flash, Silver Flashabou
Underwing: White Synthetic Big Fly Hair, White Icelandic Sheep's hair, UV Pearl Krystal Flash

Step one, get your thread wrapped on good. Kevlar thread has a tendency to slip on the hook shank so it's a good idea to half hitch (single whip finish) often and apply head cement or super glue on your wraps as often as you can.

Start by tying in your flash tail. The length is up to you. Mine was about 5-6 inches

Next tie in a clump of white bucktail over top of the flash. I like to make sure the bucktail wraps 360º around the hook shank and totally contain the flash.

Now you can wrap forward and start tying in your wing materials. BUT, instead of the standard rear-facing wing, you want to tie everything forward. Make sure you make it all long enough to fold back and create enough of a wing. Remember that whatever you tie in first, will be the outer-most part of the wing. So darker, more durable materials first, and work in towards flash and accent colours.

Almost ready to fold back. This photo shows all the materials tied forward. You'll notice I tie a fair amount onto the hook shank and it's important to coat with epoxy or head cement before you continue. Also, make sure you whip finish often!

Now you want to separate the top and the bottom wings and fold back. I like to hold it down with my left hand and bring your bobbin ahead of the wings right behind the hook eye. Wrap a small head here and tighten up the wings. You don't want to tie over the wings though. Whip finish and cut your thread.
Now take your bobbin and wrap over the folded back wings and push them forward to create a "bubble" like shown in the photo. This is giving the shape for the head.

Epoxy around the hook eye and make a 1/2" head of epoxy. This will hold the materials at the desired angle. I like to use a two-part, liquid epoxy instead of the gel type. This way I know it's penetrating through the materials and into the thread. You can also use Marine Goop or UV epoxies. You can add your eyes at this time as well. I like to epoxy over the eyes and make sure they won't fall off when you catch a fish.

When the epoxy is dry you can unwrap your bobbin and the wing will stay at this angle. You will be left with a large profile, "hollow" fly. This fly is 8-inches long but doesn't weigh much. Also because I used a lot of lightweight materials that don't absorb water, it will easier to cast than say a big bunny strip style fly.

http://weedbed.blog.com/2012/02/pike-fly-tutorial/

Chart and white.

Black, tan, and white. KILLER!

Vans · Mar 15, 2012

I just found out there are Tiger Musky in a few Washington lakes. The closest one is about 1.5 hrs away. So, i am antsy to go give it a shot. Been gathering info from guys who chase them locally.

Those flies Didg just posted should help. Though, the are quite a bit bigger than what the guys locally have been using.

Musky are a fish i have dreamed about catching since i was 12 years old and reading my dads Outdoor life and Field & Stream magazines. Such a big, aggressive top tier predator. Some day...

Didgeridoo · Mar 15, 2012

Thing to remember about musky and pike is they're big predators that will not hesitate to eat big prey. I've witnessed in person on a number of occasions ducklings getting picked off by pike. I've also had musky come up and whack my guests' bass while on the line!

A 6-12" fly is nothing for a pike to eat. The idea of the pattern I tie is to represent a big, easy meal but something you can still cast. I don't dare go after pike unless I have a 9wt in hand and wire bite tippet. A new product I tried out last year is called Knot-2-Kinky. It's fantastic stuff! It stretches but is ultra thin, never kinks, and just goes on forever it seems. It's a nickel-titanium alloy. I tie the wire to a 77250-BL Mustad swivel and then to a section of 15lb mono which is then loop-to-loop to my fly line. At the wire-to-fly connection you can either tie the leader to a snap or direct to the fly. The idea with tying to a snap is you can change flies without cutting and re-tying your wire, which shortens your wire leader everytime you switch.

Nick

chuck s · Mar 15, 2012

Great posts folks! The Washington DFW stocks tiger muskies into seven lakes in the state: Mayfield Lake (Lewis Co.), Merwin Reservoir (Cowlitz Co.), Lake Tapps (Pierce Co.), Evergreen Reservoir (Grant Co.), Silver Lake and Newman Lake (Spokane Co.) and Curlew Lake (Ferry Co.).

Merwin should be the closest but I've no reports or knowledge of it's fishery. Newman Lake in Spokane has some bruisers in it!

Didgeridoo - love those flys you posted. Always looking for ways to bulk up a fly without adding weight, especially after they get wet and I agree with your missile assessment!

edw · Mar 16, 2012

I have caught a lot of Tiger Muskies in the last couple of years on flies and a bunch of Northerns a long time ago on flies. Over the years I have come up with a style that works very well for me.

First I don't put a lot of time thinking where a Muskie might be holding or what they might be doing. Muskies are ambush fish and therefore hang out where they can be sneaky. My main concern while I am casting is to make myself the bait fish.

Bait fish don't dart all over the place in a constant state of panic or they would never get to eat. Many magazine articles say fly fishermen have to constantly strip the fly to get Muskies to attack. I don't follow that at all.

I tie a pretty simple fly about 9" long using a lot of Maribou, reverse tied buck tail and synthetics most of the time on tubes. This fly will hang in the water for quite a long time.

The way I work the fly is to use, what I was taught a million years ago, a Bluegill craw. I take in very small amounts of line in a twitching motion wrapping line back and forth with my left fingers. ( I'm sure there is a name for the procedure). I watch my fly constantly. I'm now a minnow feeding or just enjoying life in the sun. This carefree swimming seems to attract Muskies and it will do so from deep water as well as shallow. Easy pickings I guess. Anyway sooner or later I will get interest and then I think what a minnow must feel and pick up the pace, a little at first and then speed up if I still have the Muskies attention. The strike is inevitable.

A lot of times I can't always see my fly due to the time of day or dirty water. In those cases I will operate my fly the very same way with the very slow twitch. Half way back to the boat I will assume that I have a customer and start the frantic retrieve.

As far as hook sets go I always use a salt water style set which takes a lot to get use to but will increase landing percentages greatly. Just keep your rod pointed to the fly and pull the line hard upon a strike. Lifting your rod as in a trout set will not get the hook in a tough Muskie jaw.

That's what I do and it works
Ed

chuck s · Mar 17, 2012

Sounds great. Love to hear more. Making your fly look alive is much of the battle. You only have to have a big fish spook once from you stripping your fly directly to him instead of away as a natural baitfish would do, to learn this lesson. Love the nuance of meandering that fly along as a baitfish and then fleeing as the big boy approaches.:thumbsupu

Here's a bit of Musky Lore possibly based in research: (circa 1984/85) "MINNESOTA MUSKIES TOUGH TO CATCH • According to a recent study conducted by the Minnesota Department of Natural Resources, the muskellunge is the hardest fish to catch in the state. It takes about 10000 casts to land one muskie, or one hundred angler hours." Sound familiar? They went on to say this was with legal Muskies which were in the 30 or 36 inch range depending on where you fished in the state. Soon after writers were telling us about the fish of 10,000 casts. (F&S Magazine.)

Speaking of that, keep in mind they were speaking of just the true Muskies which have three sub divisions last I checked. Ohio, Northern aka Tiger at one time*, and the Great Lakes Musky. Folks do get the Tiger, aka Barred, aka Northern Musky mixed up with the Musky, Pike Hybrid also called the Tiger Musky.:secret: There are several studies out there that show the Tiger (hybrid) is not nearly so daunting.:sweatingb

At any rate, good points all!

edw · Mar 17, 2012

Chuck, Muskie fishing can be tough if for no other reason that there are fewer fish sincethey are the top preditor. Blowing my own horn, I caught last year 31 Muskies on flies and that was during 22 trips. Fish of a thousand cast? Not always.
Ed

chuck s · Mar 17, 2012

Good points EDW! And on flys yet. Recent survey showed that catching adult Tigers, using all methods, the catch rate was about 1 adult per every 36 fishing hours. Extrapolating from the above at 10,000 per 100 hrs, that would mean about 3,000 casts per fish. Im betting that a top notch Tiger fly angler would be able to match that if not better it as you've likely done. They, the researchers, say that 10 percent of the anglers catch 90% of the fish.

I am sure that these days, with the info sharing capabilities of the net, that folks are catching on a lot quicker on how to catch Muskys or Tigers but as you said they are top dawg and due to numbers if nothing else they will always remain a top level challenge.

Hey Van--how about this one! http://foreverfishing-sparky1doug.blogspot.com/2011/09/50-tiger-muskie-caught-in-washington.html

chuck s · Mar 19, 2012

Here's a thought for all. :secret: Since so much is made of the 10,000 casts, and even though it may be less for an accomplished angler, how about making it a bit easier?

When asked about search/teasing patterns used for covering a lot of water quickly a good many of top Tiger/Musky/Pike anglers said, "big Inline Spinners!" (such as a Mepps Musky Killer in the largest size) Throwing one of these with a big spinning or a casting outfit is faster and easier and covers a lot more distance, than slinging that ten weight all afternoon. Once you've located a big one via a follow, a swirl, a strike, or even a catch you've gained valuable knowledge and now know where he and perhaps they live in that lake or stream.

:shades: Down on Baja you'll see a very similar scenario as a spin caster throws a big hookless lure out to draw in the fish and when the Roosterfish comes for it, and gets within casting distance the fly angler throws his fly to the fish, and the lure is snatched away quickly. (Baja) A similar thing is done for boat fly fishing for Marlin or Sails We used to service the reels of one of the top ten billfish fly anglers in the tourny world and he said much the same about these big billfish as they are teased up by a spread of lures, and then brought in even closer with a fellow casting a big teaser and then as that is snatched away and the boat is thrown out of gear, the fly caster casts his fly to the "lit up," billfish and hangs on!

I just read an article on Colorado where a fellow disagrees with the Inline Spinners as his take on Colorado Muskies and Pike is that they are conditioned to feeding on trout so big trout shaped lures work best for finding them. Which ever method you use, one thing is for sure, a spinning or casting outfit is a handy thing to carry along when after Esox!

chuck s · Mar 25, 2012

pike and predator fishing flies | piketrek pikesaber

Quite a nice website with dozens of Pike and Musky Flies with how to, easy to follow directions on tying them. What's your favorite fly, what are you primarily targeting, how do you tie and fish it? Is anyone using a fly that incorporates a spinner or blade, etc?

Here's a good discussion from several toothy critter anglers on their choice of bite tippet! Strip-n-Twitch: Featured Article

chuck s · Apr 7, 2012

Last Bump!

Here's a great idea for a fly and also a really good Tiger Musky/Northern Pike forum in general: (Van this is in your neck of the woods)

Washingon Lakes Fishing Forum • View topic - Musky flies

I'm definitely going to tie a few of those in various sizes from about 6 inches up.

Another Tip! :icon_idea In early season I prefer smaller flies due to the many smaller minnows, or young of the year that are found in the spring, etc, moving to the bigger flies as two things occur. One is that with warming waters the Tiger and other Esox predator's appetite increases dramatically and two the minnows are getting bigger quickly. Another good tip :icon_idea is a take off of the one above but instead of using a Spinning or casting rod to tease, and locate the fish, use your 7 or 8 weight and smaller flies instead of your nine and ten weight rods and those big ones. You will not wear your arm out as quickly and plus with those smaller flies you might even get a bass or two to hit as well. keeping things lively.

Lastly, :icon_idea years back fishing Newman Lake near Spokane, I kept getting nice solid hits on my nine inch Dark Purple worm while fishing for bass. Upon setting the hook, the line would go slack and I'd reel in nothing but the end of my line where the lure had been cut off. Another fellow fishing there then told me of the Tigers in that lake and since them I've wanted to try my big bass fly that I came up a few years while fishing the Stick Marsh and other huge bass haunts in Florida.

The fly is a big one but very light weight and easy to cast with anything from a seven weight on up. It's simple and easy to tie as you use a 3/0-5/0 weed guard hook with a shaved rabbit strip tail of the color you like. I prefer the deep purple or black and do leave the rabbit fur at the tail end for a paddle effect. I then Palmer a shalappen feather on the shank of that hook with my favorite colors being black and purple also. The shaved strip is alive in the water and it looks very snakey coming through the water. I've had good luck with them tied in lengths from 6 to 12 inches.:thumbsupu

Thanks to the few of you who participated in this discussion. I appreciate your ideas and enjoyed talking Esox with you.:clap:

Muskellenge, Northern Pike or Tiger Musky?

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Member

Well-known member

Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member