Gearing Up for Musky- Lend me your opinions (TFO Esox, Mangrove, others)

[clouserguyky]

Hey folks. Hate to give you another gear thread (maybe this should be in the fly rods forum?), but I'm looking into entering the musky game and I am needing some help considering rods and lines. Right now my heaviest set up is a 9' 8 weight rod, and while I think it could probably handle an average sized musky or pike, I don't think it'd be up to the task of casting a ten or twelve inch musky fly, but I could be wrong. A trophy musky would probably destroy it.

In my area, musky inhabit several streams and lakes of various size, so I'd like something versatile. I'm not going to be fishing for these guys a ton, probably just a few times a year, so I'm probably going to stick with either the TFO Esox or the TFO Mangrove as opposed to buying another Sage or other high end rod. I'll leave the high dollar stuff for my "daily drivers" so to speak.

Here are the two routes I am considering. I could sell my 8 weight rod and replace it with a 9 weight TFO Mangrove. That 9 weight could cover Musky, although it would struggle with some larger flies, yet it'd still be a suitable rod for all around salt water use, pike, etc.. I don't need a high end salt water rod either, so this would be killing two birds with one stone. I have a good 7 weight that gets much more use than the 8, so I'd be comfortable making this transition. This "all around" big game approach is attractive, and this is the route I'm leaning towards at the moment, but I'm not sure if it's realistic.

The other route would be to keep the 8 weight, and jump the 9 weight to snag the 10 weight TFO Esox rod. It's the same blank as the Mangrove with some specialization towards fishing for big game species. Rod designer Blane Chocklett describes those features in detail here: YouTube. With this rod, while it's a bit heavier, the extended fighting but could aid in reducing the fatigue of casting large flies hundreds to thousands of times. Supposedly the burled cork helps reduce fatigue too. I've searched this forum and others for info on these Esox rods, but haven't found a ton of detailed information from people who have them.

Let me hear your thoughts, especially you guys who fish for esox species.

 

[denver1911]

I don't fish for them on the fly, or much at all really, but I will say this: Ten or Twelve inch fly on a 9 or 10 wt rod .. doesn't sound like a good match to me. Twelve wt minimum for those size lures.

 

[jr spey]

I don't fish for them on the fly, or much at all really, but I will say this: Ten or Twelve inch fly on a 9 or 10 wt rod .. doesn't sound like a good match to me. Twelve wt minimum for those size lures.

That depends a lot upon what material is used in the long fly. I have a few I fish for pike that are all of 12" long and can effectively be fished with an eight weight. Most serious musky flies, though, use a lot of natural materials and require a minimum of a ten weight. Unfortunately, as I pointed out in the Musky Fly fishing thread here, not all ten weights make the grade. I've used the Mangrove ten and found it lacking. Worse yet, I've used the heavier of the two Esox rods and found it lacking, too. The truth is that it tosses large flies quite effectively, but when you stick a big fish, the rod just folds over onto the cork which does not allow one to effectively fight the fish. That's especially a big concern in rivers, especially midwest rivers which are generally shallow and loaded with debris. For the same price, I would look for a used 10 weight TFO TiCr (not the TiCrX) or the original TFO Axiom in a ten weight. Both are far superior to the Mangrove/Esox series. I haven't tried the new Axiom II as yet so I'll reserve judgment on it. There's a new musky specific rod coming out from a small manufacturer in Minnesota that should be available some time in February. I had a chance to fish the prototype last fall and think it might be the best yet and the price should be quite attractive. I'll make a point of noting here when that rod is released. Trust me, unless they've screwed up since the prototype you'll be glad you waited.

 

[el_deanyo]

My go-to rod is a 10wt for Musky and I'd recommend that at minimum. It struggles with a couple of the larger flies i try to throw, and have an 11 wt for just that reason. Something to consider is if you're going to use it ever in saltwater... if so, the Esox is perhaps too specialized with the fighting butt. The balance is do you want to throw a heavier 12wt all day, knowing you'll never be under-gunned, or a lighter 10wt with the possibility you may not be able to throw a few flies. Whatever you do settle on, i'd highly suggest getting one of the SA Sonar lines: either the I/3/5 or 3/5/7 - they are night & day vs. a full sink line as their taper really helps turn over these large flies.

 

[clouserguyky]

My go-to rod is a 10wt for Musky and I'd recommend that at minimum. It struggles with a couple of the larger flies i try to throw, and have an 11 wt for just that reason. Something to consider is if you're going to use it ever in saltwater... if so, the Esox is perhaps too specialized with the fighting butt. The balance is do you want to throw a heavier 12wt all day, knowing you'll never be under-gunned, or a lighter 10wt with the possibility you may not be able to throw a few flies. Whatever you do settle on, i'd highly suggest getting one of the SA Sonar lines: either the I/3/5 or 3/5/7 - they are night & day vs. a full sink line as their taper really helps turn over these large flies.

I hear lots of good things about those lines and am wanting a 7 weight for trout and bass streamers too. I may try to find a used 10 weight Mangrove or Esox... I'm in no rush here so keep the opinions coming.

 

[jspfishing]

I would probably go up to a 12wt. I am also trying to set up a rod for Musky. From what some guides have told me they use 12wt rods. The TFO Esox is a sweet rod bc it has that extra long fighting butt and can cast like a dream. That would be my choice over the Mangrove which is also a nice rod. A lot of guys in Jersey crush saltwater fish with the TFO Mangrove.

 

[clsmith131]

I have a 8'10" #10 that I'm going to try in March on some Tennesee Musky. I'm hoping the shorter length will help, since it generates line speed quickly over fewer false casts. I probably won't catch any the first time. But I feel pretty confident that the rod will work well enough to give me a fighter's chance. If not, maybe I can find some of those river run stripers.

 

[dennyk]

This past weekend I had the opportunity to speak with a Musky guide on the Great Lakes. He starts with a 10wt and goes up to a 12wt with full sinking lines as fly size and weather conditions dictate. The flies he had in his booth looked to start at about 12 inches and went up to 14 inches. He had some really nice pictures and footage of the Tiger Muskies.

Good Luck!

Denny

 

[jr spey]

I have a 8'10" #10 that I'm going to try in March on some Tennesee Musky. I'm hoping the shorter length will help, since it generates line speed quickly over fewer false casts. I probably won't catch any the first time. But I feel pretty confident that the rod will work well enough to give me a fighter's chance. If not, maybe I can find some of those river run stripers.

I'm not sure that 2" will make any noticeable difference in line speed. When fishing rivers from a driftboat I use rods of 8' and below. That will be noticeable. I've tried about ten rods that fit that description and have found only a few that are really good musky sticks. One is the 8' TFO MiniMag heavy. Another is the Sea Level 7' 10" Inshore 10 weight (discontinued and VERY hard to find). The Loomis Shortstix 10/11 is only 7'6" and is superb (some musky guys use the 11/12 in that series.) The final one is the Redington Predator in the 7'10" 10 weight. There were actually three generations of that rod and all were quite good. The final one was probably the most refined of them. Others by Sage, Ross, Scott, Orvis ands probably a few more I can't remember right now didn't make the grade. For the most part they didn't have enough butt to put pressure on a fish once hooked. That's where the Sea Level rod really stands out.

 

[joe_strummer]

For my biggest, bulkiest pike and musky flies, 9" to 12", an 11-wt works for me. I've got more 11's than 4 and 5's, in Colorado, and the one I like best for slinging the meat is the Sage Musky.

I use an SA Sonar Titan Int/3/5 pretty much exclusively for it. Pulls those big hairballs down.

 

[joe_strummer]

...generates line speed quickly over fewer false casts...

In my view of pike and musky fishing with big flies, one false cast is ideal, two is ok but not every cast, and three is either you're undergunnned or you're playing with it and need to cut it out and get back to fishing.

 

[jr spey]

In my view of pike and musky fishing with big flies, one false cast is ideal, two is ok but not every cast, and three is either you're undergunnned or you're playing with it and need to cut it out and get back to fishing.

Anyone who does three false casts for every presentation isn't likely to last long unless young and in great physical shape. As I pointed out on a different thread, Rick Kustich, in his new book on flyfishing muskies, recommends as many as five false casts each time. I couldn't believe it. It's about the only thing in his major work I completely disagreed with. Most of my presentations have NO false cast at all-just a powerful backcast and a forward cast. Now I'm mostly fishing midwestern rivers and 60' casts are not only unnecessary but actually a disadvantage in most cases, but to cast 40' with no false casts requires a very aggressive backcast to load the rod. Most of the time my approach is to do a Belgian cast right from the end of the "figure 8" which actually for me is a large oval rather than a true 8.

 

[joe_strummer]

Anyone who does three false casts for every presentation isn't likely to last long unless young and in great physical shape.

Yep, totally agree. Get enough rod and line to move the flies you're trying to fish the distance you need to move them, with command of the cast but as little false casting as possible. That's big fly fishing.

In my case, I'm often have a lot of space and am trying to make a pretty long cast, tuck the rod, and make a two-handed retrieve. I want a long cast so I have a lot of room to accelerate the retrieve in front of a follow. My casting technique is enough of a false cast to get everything airborne and moving, strong backcast that feeds as much line as I can, then shoot.

Duck and chuck.

This kind of casting, this is a place where the marginal performance advantages of SA's textured lines assert themselves.

 

[ddb]

Allen Fly Fishing has a line of very fast Azimuth rods that include a 9' 10 wt priced @$300 that appear perfect for musky work. They are designed to pitch big flies in big winds and the salt. Anyone use one?

My hand is hovering over the buy it key....

ddb

 

[jr spey]

Allen Fly Fishing has a line of very fast Azimuth rods that include a 9' 10 wt priced @$300 that appear perfect for musky work. They are designed to pitch big flies in big winds and the salt. Anyone use one?

My hand is hovering over the buy it key....

ddb

.

I wouldn't pull the trigger unless you can use one first. A lot of 9' 10 weight rods cast musky flies quite nicely. The proof in the pudding is how the rods perform after you set the hooks in a decent fish. Way too many 9' 10's that I've fished don't cut it, including some that are named as musky rods. It's hard to put a rod to the test unless you have a friend that has the same model and you can use it. I've even been fooled by trying to bend the rod in-hand as if a fish were on the end of the line. I ended up buying a Sage Peacock Bass rod in their Bass II Series by an in-store test of the bend/flex of the rod. I fished it for a month and sold it. My ten weight rods, and I own a bunch of them, are either permit rods, tarpon rods, or musky rods. The needs for all three are quite different. Unfortunately, even the opinion of other musky anglers may not be reliable. Too many posts that I read worry about how they cast, maybe the swing weight, but rarely say anything about how they perform with a fish on. I wouldn't even know what line to start with on that rod. At the very least, you'll need to have a bunch of them available to determine the grain load needed. As I mentioned in another thread about muskies, there's new rod coming out this spring that is going to be superb. I've fished the prototype last fall and fell in love. Be a little patient and when the rod is introduced officially I'll post it here. As I said before, I'm quite certain it'll be worth the wait and probably will be priced about where your Azimuth is (although that's not a promise.). And just to clarify. I have no financial interest at all in this new rod. I'll be paying retail for mine just like most everyone else.

 

[jr spey]

Tell you what. I went to the website to look at the rod. It's mostly a trout series (4 5 and 6 weights) that happens to have a ten weight. That makes me nervous. Its action is described as extra fast. That makes me even more nervous. However, there was something on there about a 30 day test drive. If you can actually fish the rod during that test drive and have the patience to wait until you'll get a chance to use it fishing before you acquire it, and that depends upon where you live (you don't have that filled out for us) then if you're lucky enough to catch at least one fish, you might have something. (Bad sentence, but it's too late at night to fix it!) Many times test drives mean casting on the lawn but no actual fishing. But, that's at least a start. I don't want to talk you out of it, just caution about buying something only because the price looks good.

 

[sabbatoy]

Mystic Rods makes a musky edition in 10-12wt. I am hoping to order one before too long. I currently have an Echo 10 wt that works pretty good and better than my Sage RPLX. I feel a 10 wt is all I need as most of the flies are synthetic and sparsely tied. I have only used a floating musky line so far but did pick up a 300 and 350 grain streamer lines to start using.

 

[jr spey]

I've heard good things about the Mystic rod. I've cast other Mystics and really like them. Which Echo 10 do you have? They have had a bunch over the years, some of which were better than others for musky.

 

[jr spey]

That depends a lot upon what material is used in the long fly. I have a few I fish for pike that are all of 12" long and can effectively be fished with an eight weight. Most serious musky flies, though, use a lot of natural materials and require a minimum of a ten weight. Unfortunately, as I pointed out in the Musky Fly fishing thread here, not all ten weights make the grade. I've used the Mangrove ten and found it lacking. Worse yet, I've used the heavier of the two Esox rods and found it lacking, too. The truth is that it tosses large flies quite effectively, but when you stick a big fish, the rod just folds over onto the cork which does not allow one to effectively fight the fish. That's especially a big concern in rivers, especially midwest rivers which are generally shallow and loaded with debris. For the same price, I would look for a used 10 weight TFO TiCr (not the TiCrX) or the original TFO Axiom in a ten weight. Both are far superior to the Mangrove/Esox series. I haven't tried the new Axiom II as yet so I'll reserve judgment on it. There's a new musky specific rod coming out from a small manufacturer in Minnesota that should be available some time in February. I had a chance to fish the prototype last fall and think it might be the best yet and the price should be quite attractive. I'll make a point of noting here when that rod is released. Trust me, unless they've screwed up since the prototype you'll be glad you waited.

Don't usually respond to one of my own posts, but I couldn't figure out another way to do this. I mentioned a new musky rod that was coming out in February by a small company in Minnesota. I had a chance to fish the prototype last October and was very impressed. Now I'm following through on my commitment to you to announce when it's actually on the market. It was announced today, in fact. The company is Limit Creek Rods in Spring Valley, Minnesota. It's retail price is $360.00. Now, an opinion from my opportunity to fish it. It was somewhere between 8'9" and 9', I don't recall exactly. It's weight was heavy by modern standards at over 6oz. However, I've come to realize that that weight is almost a necessity to give one a blank that will not only cast a large fly but will fight a good sized musky adequately. For many of us, that means shallow rivers in the upper midwest where you just cannot afford to give the fish an inch. The handle of the rod has an extended rear grip and an extended fore grip. Both are necessary to effectively use the rod as a two-handed rod when desired. You need that spread between the hands for the leverage necessary to pull off a crisp two-handed cast with no false casts. For those of you who remember the old Beulah Bluewater rods series, these handles are very similar. It's designed to toss a flyline of about 450-500gr. I was using the SA Titan Sonar Intermediate in 500gr. when I fished it and it seemed perfect. It's a four piece rod and will come with a hard tube. Haven't seen the tube yet, but that's been the plan. Their website now has the rod listed, and there is mention of it on their Facebook page and Instagram. It is called the Force M1 Apex Predator. I have not seen the finished product, but the designer assures me it's what he wanted with maybe a picky quibble or two that most of us wouldn't even notice. The crew from Limit Creek are at a fishing show in Wausau, Wisconsin through Sunday so expect that there might be a delay in answering any inquiries. Let me know if you have further questions. By the way, I have no affiliation at all with this rod company, and just ordered mine at retail.

 

[sabbatoy]

I have the Echo Ion in a number of weights. The 10 wt is a pretty good rod for the price. I have a Mystic Reaper in 7 wt that is a fast action rod. I think Mystic still has their buy one get one free rod sale going on.